Has Sylvanas betrayed the Horde yet?

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

Just… wow. The whole Battle of Lordaeron would have seen at least one of every class, it was a major event after all and Forsaken death knights -do exist-.

And the Lich King believes that Sylvanas has gone too far.

But let’s disregard that for a moment.

How many forsaken death knights?

Amongst them how many are blood?

Frost?

Unholy?

You don’t know, because it’s irrelevant to the story. No death knight in the story performed Army of the Dead. And even if they did? Death Knights have runeblades. They steal souls and use them for their necromancy.

And furthermore?

ARMY OF THE DEAD ENDS IN … 15? SECONDS.

The skeletons are still out there.

Saurfang knew that by letting Anduin live in hopes that Anduin would kill Sylvanas it would also lead to the deaths of any loyal horde soldiers Anduin killed on the way.

Not if Saurfang spared Anduin in the courtyard, which is the only time he’d have reason to hope that Anduin could overcome the Blight to kill Sylvanas. Never you mind that Sylvanas was alone and the Horde was in Orgrimmar – and Saurfang knew it.

[Lintsehsu-wyrmrest-accord (Lintsehsu)]

Don’t get me wrong, its very evil and irresponsible of Sylvanas to just be ok with the death of the planet as a side effect of her actual goals.

But that doesn’t mean destroying the planet IS her goal. What would she even have to gain from that?

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

But that doesn’t mean destroying the planet IS her goal. What would she even have to gain from that?

A planet’s worth of forsaken and a portal to another planet if Azeroth is more broken up than Outland was.

[Lintsehsu-wyrmrest-accord (Lintsehsu)]

Not if Saurfang spared Anduin in the courtyard, which is the only time he’d have reason to hope that Anduin could overcome the Blight to kill Sylvanas. Never you mind that Sylvanas was alone and the Horde was in Orgrimmar – and Saurfang knew it.

I was actually talking about when he let Anduin live in the cutscene.

You know, the one where he says “could kill you now”.

Because he could indeed kill Anduin in that moment. But he does not, because he still hopes Anduin will stop Sylvanas. Unfortunately there’s the entire horde infrastructure and military in the way of that goal.

[Sarthiria-wyrmrest-accord]

You’re looking at this from a gameplay perspective dude, of course it ends in 15 seconds since it is a -MECHANIC-. -ROLEPLAY- and character writing is canonical to the story in the sense that if -NONE- of our characters were there… then -NONE- of them would be healing Azeroth.

[Bronnix-bleeding-hollow (Bronnix)]

They used a version Blight. Which is rooted upon the Plague, which also made undead when it killed people.

What the hell are you talking about? The Ebon Blade have never used blight. If you play a DK the Ebon Blade raises hundreds of undead to fight at the Broken shore by hand.

She’s created abominations, huh?

When?

Not her specifically but the Forsaken have done so for years under her orders.

They’re also needed because they can cross the barrier and Sylvanas cannot.

You dont need to cross the barrier to raise undead with souls.

The Banshee in EPL revamp.
The Forsaken with Abominations from vanilla to cata.
Death Knights of the Ebon Blade in Legion.

ARMY OF THE DEAD ENDS IN … 15? SECONDS.

Game mechanics. They dont really die in a few seconds lorewise as we see at the Broken Shore with the DK casting Army continuously.

It would be OP to have the ghouls up until they were killed in combat. Dks would just chain army for hours on end and smash raid and PvP content.

[Murphio-moon-guard (Murphio)]

Them I’ll ask again, why did she murder them?

My answer wont change, because it’s still the same. She was scared the Forsaken would turn against her if Alliance sentiment through Calia got out to the Horde.

THIS is a goal post moval.

Short term vs long term.

No it was a jab at how you’re ignoring the themes of the Expansion for your own narrative of “Sylvanas bad and this whole expansion is about Sylvanas”.

Because by Word of God Sylvanas is evil. They even announced that Sylvanas was going to be replaced at the Blizzcon QnA.

I’ve seen that clip a few times from you posting it over and over. I still don’t see how you can get that from what they said.
Oh but if I say something about interpretation I’m immediate wrong because ???

All includes everyone.

Sounds like any other egotistical Warcraft leader to me.

They literally wrote a book setting up Sylvanas lying to the Horde, betraying the Forsaken, removing the Forsaken’s rights to history, and heavily discouraging using their birth names, as well as intentionally mining Azeroth with the full knowledge that the act will kill the planet and you think it’s irrelevant?

Before the Storm is a mountain of evidence supporting what Word of God stated at Blizzcon:

Sylvanas’s plans are evil. Her War Campaign is purely about destruction.

That’s a weird way to read that book. Can you try that again but instead put yourself in Sylvanas’ place for one second?
Does any of what happens make any sense with your interpretation?
You’ll probably find the answer is no.
If not, then fine.

A planet’s worth of forsaken and a portal to another planet if Azeroth is more broken up than Outland was

Whew “A portal to another planet”.
Good to know we have billions of those around, huh?

[Dotzy-kargath]

Once you’re ready to talk about and provide proof that Sylvanas is trying to “trying to destroy the world” opposed to trying to mine Azerite then holla at me, I’ll be here waiting.

I despise real world examples but here goes nothing:

I’m digging in my back yard looking for fossils, but the neighbor is telling me that I’m harming the earth. I’m I A. Trying to collect fossils or B. Trying to harm the earth?

I can’t make it anymore simple than that, sorry.

Your harming the earth is not you acting as leader of a world power, with full knowledge that what you’re doing will end with the death of every living being on the planet.

I’m not sure why this doesn’t extend to the Alliance though? They have an Azerite war machine in Arathi and they also now have one in BoD as a miniboss.

[Sarthiria-wyrmrest-accord]

I wonder when we’ll get more mechs in the game… (off topic but I’m really hoping we do.)

[Jellex-wyrmrest-accord (Jellex)]

ITT Treng vs. The World

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

I was actually talking about when he let Anduin live in the cutscene.

We don’t know that that is him sparing Anduin. It doesn’t seem like he is. It sure looks like Genn Greymane saves Anduin’s life.

then -NONE- of them would be healing Azeroth.

One of them would.

What the hell are you talking about?

Come, friend, sit by the fire as I link you to a story and you can pretend that I’m regaling you a tale while bearing a big bushy white beard, a rosey nose, prim and proper glasses, and a churchwarden pipe.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Plague_of_Undeath

Not her specifically but the Forsaken have done so for years under her orders.

And they could’ve done it before souls moved on.

You dont need to cross the barrier to raise undead with souls.

You’re correct. If you have a means of trapping souls, or you’re quick, you can infact raise the dead.

The Banshee in EPL revamp.

You’d have to source it. I don’t know what you’re referring to.

The Forsaken with Abominations from vanilla to cata.

See above.

Death Knights of the Ebon Blade in Legion.

Runeblades capture souls. There’s even a mechanic that they regularly add and remove depending on how broken they are in PVP.

No it was a jab at how you’re ignoring the themes of the Expansion for your own narrative of “Sylvanas bad and this whole expansion is about Sylvanas”.

??? But next patch doubles down on Sylvanas being evil.

I still don’t see how you can get that from what they said.

???

That’s a weird way to read that book. Can you try that again but instead put yourself in Sylvanas’ place for one second?
Does any of what happens make any sense with your interpretation?
You’ll probably find the answer is no.
If not, then fine.

Okay.

“I betrayed the Horde by lying to them about why I was starting this war. Infact, I just want to kill every human in stormwind so that I can grow my army of Forsaken, but I can’t tell the Horde that because they’ll rebel. I have to tell them a lie to get them to agree on their own terms. I might even have to make them think it was their idea.”

“I told the Forsaken to come back when I blew the horn but I will kill every Forsaken who does not come back immediately after meeting their living family members because I cannot trust that they will spread hope that might uproot my control of my kingdom. I can only trust those who are truly desolate.”

“To further cement my control I must remove all histories where my people were once loyal to people who weren’t me. I will make it illegal to own said histories. I will also admonish those who don’t take new names to try to make them identify more with my rule and the former.”

“I intend for all to serve me. How best to do that than to kill the planet and cause every living being to die? Then, all will be ripe for the Forsakening.”

All I did was switch “Sylvanas” with “I”. I’m not that messed up, but Sylvanas is. She’s confirmed evil, word of god and all.

Whew “A portal to another planet”.
Good to know we have billions of those around, huh?

Well I mean wasn’t it your theory that Saurfang is going to Outland to find Thrall?

Convenient that suddenly when Sylvanas may intend to use it, suddenly it’s a non issue.

I’m not sure why this doesn’t extend to the Alliance though?

It does. The difference is that if the Alliance can defeat Sylvanas, we have no reason to believe that they will continue killing Azeroth.

Both are terribly evil, but Sylvanas acted first when the Alliance was trying to heal the planet. She wants everyone to serve her, and how best to do that than to kill the thing that allows everything else to live?

[Deathisfinal-gnomeregan (Deathisfinal)]

ITT Treng vs. The World

Gotta say its entertaining watching him scramble about.

[Lintsehsu-wyrmrest-accord (Lintsehsu)]

We don’t know that that is him sparing Anduin. It doesn’t seem like he is. It sure looks like Genn Greymane saves Anduin’s life.

C’mon man, I specifically said “the cutscene where he says ‘could kill you now’.” You know, the one with him alone in a cell with anduin?

He could have killed Anduin and decapitate the Alliance to help the Horde win the war right then and there. But he wants Anduin to defeat Sylvanas, so he acceps the side effect of more horde soldiers dying in the prolonged war.

[Sarthiria-wyrmrest-accord]

“One of them would.” When it was stated explicitly that everyone who had an artifact which was the entire playerbase would need to heal Azeroth for it to even stabilize her… that’s a very cute response though that was contradicting to your entire argument prior, I hope that was sarcasm.

[Dotzy-kargath]

ITT Treng vs. The World

Gotta say its entertaining watching him scramble about.

Treng loves talking about Sylvanas more than we do, DiF

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

My answer wont change, because it’s still the same. She was scared the Forsaken would turn against her if Alliance sentiment through Calia got out to the Horde.

Ok, so she betrayed them because she thought they would betray her. It’s a betrayal. She assured her peoples’ safety before they left UC for the meeting, and then put arrows in their backs. It’s a betrayal of trust and faith, there’s no “if”s, “and”s, or “but”s.

[Sarthiria-wyrmrest-accord]

He wants a true ‘Horde’ Warchief. Inb4 you ask, it has to be a shortsighted Orc who can hide behind prison walls instead of someone even remotely interesting.

[Dotzy-kargath]

It does. The difference is that if the Alliance can defeat Sylvanas, we have no reason to believe that they will continue killing Azeroth.

Both are terribly evil, but Sylvanas acted first when the Alliance was trying to heal the planet. She wants everyone to serve her, and how best to do that than to kill the thing that allows everything else to live?

Yeah, I don’t know. Seems rather hypocrital to be all “we only want to heal Azeroth and Sylvanas is bad!” while employing Azerite war machines to go attack places where Sylvanas isn’t even hanging out.

[Bronnix-bleeding-hollow (Bronnix)]

Come, friend, sit by the fire as I link you to a story and you can pretend that I’m regaling you a tale while bearing a big bushy white beard, a rosey nose, prim and proper glasses, and a churchwarden pipe.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Plague_of_Undeath

The Ebon Blade dont use the plague of undeath at the broken shore Jesus go back and actually READ the posts before you respond to them.

[Treng-wyrmrest-accord (Treng)]

C’mon man, I specifically said “the cutscene where he says ‘could kill you now’.” You know, the one with him alone in a cell with anduin?

My bad, I missunderstood you.

He could have killed Anduin and decapitate the Alliance to help the Horde win the war right then and there. But he wants Anduin to defeat Sylvanas, so he acceps the side effect of more horde soldiers dying in the prolonged war.

Sure. He just saw that Sylvanas will kill the Horde and enslave them anyway. Sylvanas has to be stopped. It sucks that “Da sheepies follow her everplace she go. Do everthin she say. Never doubt lady.” but how else do you stop Sylvanas?

Blizzard is clearly unwilling to go the mak’gora route, just like with Garrosh.

When it was stated explicitly that everyone who had an artifact which was the entire playerbase would need to heal Azeroth for it to even stabilize her…

For Legion, absolutely. Is there a source on there being multiple Hearts of Azeroth?

After your cute snappin’ match, I sure hope so. Elsewise you might look a bit silly.

He wants a true ‘Horde’ Warchief.

I do.

I want:

1. Lor’themar
2. Thrall
3. Saurfang
4. Vol’jin

In that order.

Seems rather hypocrital to be all “we only want to heal Azeroth and Sylvanas is bad!”

What do you expect them to do? She’s shooting them with Azerite tanks and she was the first to use that weaponry. How do you defeat Sylvanas when she’s using the metaphorical A-Bomb?

The Ebon Blade dont use the plague of undeath at the broken shore Jesus go back and actually READ the posts before you respond to them.

I thought you were talking about the crashed Forsaken airship. That’s my mistake.