You’re a crack up.
I hope you feel better.
I hope you get good 
It’s really not, from an individual contribution standpoint. Everything hard about raiding is dealing with the roster.
And yes, I realize that the added difficulty of dealing with the roster should be compensated, but, m+ is everything raiding isn’t. Intimate, personal accountability, ad hoc.
They absolutely need to bring back 10 man mythic and I highly recommend they remove the lockout on heroic and below.
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Is not just the roster. Keys are a legitimate joke in difficulty that are almost impossible to fail.
Heroic Smolder is harder than any +20 key I’ve done and it’s not even close (not even saying it’s a hard fight).
So far per raider io I have 56 timed runs and 2 non-timed runs lol. It’s comical. I also have 2 disbands, but that isn’t tracked. So out of 60 pug keys 56 timed, 2 untimed, 2 disbands.
Also, what are your thoughts on delves? Do you think they should go to heroic difficulty loot with no lockout and mythic rewards in the vault? Even if they are extremely easy solo?
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If you have 20 variables vs 5 the amount of possibilities get exponentially higher.
While the roster boss is not easy to do, it’s hard to compare a boss where you can wipe 400 times to a dungeon and where tons of people pug the highest level of M+.
10m mythic is not a thing and has never been a thing, mythic sits on the stone of being balanced around a hard 20m and you might as well remove mythic than try to tune it around 10m which they’ve never been able to do when 10m was competing with 25m.
Removing lockouts for heroic and below would only cause the problem that M+ cause which is ask more time weekly than you should want to just to be able to keep up with other players.
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Raiding was ruined when Blizzard decided harder = better.
How often do you really mess up a Smolderon mechanic? Keys are easy because your personal contribution is 20% to the effort.
And yeah, as long as heroic delves are at or near 5 mask visions. No idea how that difficulty is going to scale for every role.
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That’s fine. But raiding is a dinosaur, and we’re in the ice age.
Every part of the game needs to be more accessible.
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Flex explodes and so do the first half of mythic bosses. That seems…acceptable?
Why do delves need to be “hard” to give heroic raid gear uncapped and a mythic vault? Why not something chill and easy and soloable?
Maybe something on par with a +6 or +7. No lockout. Get aspect crests, and a mythic track item in the vault.
The only thing we have in the history of wow to compare against is torghast, visions, and MoP scenarios.
Something difficult enough to make the reward feel like it’s worth it would suffice. Like I don’t do world content at all, no matter what the rewards are. Not worth the attention span.
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This sums up my issues with mythic+.
I enjoy mythic+ and raiding both.
Chess is old and people still play it.
Being accessible doesn’t necessarily make the game better if it’s at the cost of something else.
Being accessible is only done for marketing purpose, making the game better is not their concern when talking about it.
When mage tower rereleased in SL this entire forum was up in flames about how it was “only made for the top 1% who get all the content”.
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To me, personally: Yes.
M+ and its reward scheme is literally the reason I quit my raid team of 8 years back in BfA. I was raid leading for the latter 7 years too. I quit knowing full well no one was going to take over to keep the raid going for everyone else.
As much as people like to spout off about “you shouldn’t be playing for the gear”, it DOES matter. Rewards matter. They’re massive motivators to push the content further. Even if you’re farming, getting that BiS item to drop will be a recordable performance increase. Or maybe not even BiS, just, you know, replacing those last couple pieces you hadn’t had drop yet. You don’t need them, the progression is done, but it’s still a goal to shoot for. Competing with my peers is like half the fun of group content, especially in the long-term, so of course the rewards are important.
And here’s the thing. I’d get it if I was choosing something I hate over something I enjoy just because it was more lucrative. That’s silly.
But I don’t hate M+. It’s not my most favorite thing in the world, but it’s reasonably fun, at least for awhile. So if I can choose to participate in something that’s fun and not rewarding OR something that’s fun and insanely rewarding… why would I ever choose the former? Why would I even do both, when I can just do the latter?
It’s a waste of time and effort.
And then you get the same people who crap on you for playing for gear going off about how raids have the BiS trinket or a fancy weapon or something as if that’s enough to justify progressing through an entire form of content when you can get a perfectly viable alternative from M+ anyway.
A couple shinier than average rocks in a sea of mud does not make the mud appealing.
Raiding is dead to me until they either isolate it from M+ gearing or make changes to try and balance gearing between the two.
I do not enjoy the concept of spamming M+ for a couple weeks to get Heroic-equivalent gear to then smash the Raid with, skipping roughly half of the point of “progression raiding”.
M+ killed AotC-level raiding.
I’m sure Mythic Raiding is still kicking.
That’s not where I played though.
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I don’t think the forums are a good judge of this playerbase.
These forums hate everything we get until 2 years later and thinking back on it like it’s the best thing in the world.
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It costs nothing. Raiding was better when it was 10 man. Nobody wants to kiss the ring to access the game in 2023. Those days are long over. Playing with other people isn’t novel anymore.
Games are supposed to be fun. The middle-management simulator of running a raiding guild isn’t fun. Karazhan was fun. Bear runs in ZA were fun. 10 man ICC was fun.
Whatever this is isn’t fun. And the numbers bear that out. Even if you removed the lock from heroic, it might not be enough, and heroic is shooting fish in a barrel.
M+ is fun because I can play it at my speed. I can play when I want to play as much as I want to play with who I want to play with.
When raiding can do that, it’ll even out. Killing the better alternative isn’t going to force people to raid. It’s going to force people to leave.
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No. But it will make it so raiders don’t have to spend 2-3 nights a week doing M+, on top of 2-3 nights a week raiding.
The problem with M+, for raiding, is that Blizzard tunes the raids on the assumption that everyone is already geared from M+. So if you don’t do M+, the raids are overtuned. Which makes spamming M+ mandatory.
They don’t need to lower the M+ rewards, they just need to build an iron curtain between the two so that M+ gear doesn’t work in raids, and vice versa. Just like they have with PvP gear, already.
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Well, The people complaining about how “loot ruined raiding” or “the game is catering to raiders” are players who don’t do any raiding beyond maybe LFR, which is a very different dynamic.
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im getting heroic level raid gear from doing m+ that are infinitely easier and less time consuming, while at the same time allowing me to loot gear multiple times for running the same content. m+ needs a nerf, or raiding needs a buff for sure.
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