Has M+ gear rewards ruined raiding?

Moving the goal posts doesn’t been you aren’t providing an argument. It means you’re substituting the prompt for which your arguments apply.

And the burden of proof falls on the person claiming the only reason people run M+ is gear. No such proof has been provided and the existence of keys beyond where keys give gear make it seem even less likely to be a true statement.

1 Like

No it didn’t :slight_smile:

I disagree often with the premises of your opinion, so it might be seen as moving the goal post but often that’s mostly because you’re using a strawman and trying to boil everything down to only 1 possibility when it’s an ensemble of many.

You can address a lot of stuff hypothetically with logic, while for sure not 100% perfect there is a lot you can assume with logic. It doesn’t need to be perfect, it just needs to make sense.

Just put them on ignore. I got tired of their incoherent novels. They’re just like the all the dogmatic M+ defenders, they can’t see any position but their own. They can’t even acknowledge that there are any flaws in the system.

Surely, you realize this is exactly the argument we’re making about why players run M+? :sweat_smile:

The abysmal participation for challenge modes is proof that people are only spamming M+ for the gear.

Remove the rewards and I wouldn’t be running them as much.
While some part of it can be fun, I would still rather not have to do that grind to raid.
I might still play it as side content but it wouldn’t feel like farming Thorgast for my legendary.

I never said that M+ can’t be fun, just that the power grind part is not good for people that want to raid.

The very idea that the addition of m+ made raiding worse is preposterous. Raiding has just always been bad, but there was never an alternative. They flew too close to the sun with 10 Man heroic (mythic in todays terms) and people were enjoying themselves too much without paying the proper tribute to the Neckbeards Who Came Before, and so it was killed off to force people to again kiss the ring, but after tasting freedom, people preferred to quit the game rather than submit.

Lo and behold, m+ revitalized the genre. Now you can do small group, skill based content for relevant progres. Hallelujah. But here come the angry neckbeards, angry and upset that the game isn’t being forced across the bridge they live under, and so we go around and around again. How dare we want to play the live service game we pay for on our own schedule? Everybody knows playing an MMO means giving up your social life and scheduling your free time around the game. That what real MMO players do.

—————
Instead of asking how you can ruin m+ enough that you can ignore it, ask yourself: how can you make raiding better?

2 Likes

I hate to break it to you bud, but the MMO genre is not revitalized. Dragonflight sales were so bad they didn’t even advertise those sales.

You’re just like the other defenders in this thread, completely stuck in an echo chamber. I get it, you are playing something you enjoy and hearing negative criticisms about it can be triggering.

Edit: If you think repeating the same 8 dungeons for hours on end is revitalizing the genre, then I have some magic beans to sell you.

Wait, I thought people were only playing for gear.

1 Like

M+ is single handedly keeping the lights on in retail.

No dude, the MTX and trading post is keeping the lights on.

Besides, you’re just speculating, lets see your source for this claim.

If raiding has always been bad, that’s just because you never liked it.
M+ didn’t revitalize the game, it just cannibalized the rest of the content.

People are fine with M+ existing but it needs to either have its rewards balanced or for it to be split from raiding.

Many ways have been proposed but anything that makes raiding better is seen often by people like you as an attack on m+.

1 Like

How can you make raiding better without killing m+?

Can M+ survive without it being a way better option to gear and forcing pretty much anyone that care about gear to do it?

2 Likes

Yes. It was more popular than raiding even before the item level was normalized. Way More people got 3k than CE last season, which is far and away higher than the actual loot rewards go.

It’s just better.

I’ll tell you how to make raiding better. Remove the lockouts, and offer a 10 man option for mythic. Welcome in the utopia.

2 Likes

So we’re fine with anything that would mean that raiders don’t have to do it as much?
Just to make it clear.

Mythic is not made for 10m, smaller size group content that is m+.
If you do not enjoy raiding that is fine, the point of changing stuff is to make it so people that like it can actually play it more easily.

I think they need to do more to connect players, too. There are people who would enjoy raiding, but struggle to find guilds/regular groups. The guild finder is archaic and not everyone is willing to search Reddit or Discord for guilds - some folks would prefer an in-game method.

Do you honestly think if raids only rewarded cosmetics that participation would not go down? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

The issue in question was that players are only running M+ because of gear, and no other reason.

And the low sales of DF had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the onerous gameplay systems or the godawful story in the previous expansions… :roll_eyes:

You seem to be stuck in an echo chamber all to yourself; I’m not sure if that is better or worse… :sweat_smile:

It’s posts like these that make me seriously wonder if Trilyn / Drunne / Tuwen are real people, sophisticated chatbots (well, perhaps not that sophisticated), or paid trolls from a rival MMO. :sweat_smile:

This is why I keep saying: the number 1 feature WoW needs yesterday is megaservers. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Megaserver

1 Like

I don’t get this war on raiding, this is why most people played WoW. Raiding only became a pain when the devs started making Mythic 20 man, before that, raiding was pretty easy to get into.

M+ was created to pad metrics, the entire system just reeks of some exec demanding more play time per week to increase MTX sales.