If the devs balanced the raids around 10 man parties then I think more people would raid. I’m not wasting 3-5 hours with a bunch of randoms to maybe get 1 piece of loot when I can go run multiple 20s in that same time and get more loot.
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I would disagree M+ is a “loot piñata.” Think of it this way- the Ami raid on Heroic takes an hour. 9 attempts at loot which is increased by the number of friends in that raid that can trade. A mythic dungeon typically takes 20-30 minutes a piece. That’s 2-3 pieces of possible loot in an hour of work. Same difficulty level, equal loot.
The problem you seem to have is that you have a loot lockout on raid and not on M+. I honestly think repeatable content keeps me coming back. I raid once a week. I run M+ like 5 days a week.
Keep in mind that you can’t get Mythic level gear from the farming aspect of M± it’s only available in the vault and even then it’s RNG.
Perhaps the solution is to make heroic and normal raid farmable to an extent or add some sort of diminishing return to both M+ and raiding.
During Shadowlands, I regularly was the lowest ilvl raider in my team - at times 25 item levels below the highest geared player.
If you check my logs during Shadowlands I was consistently the top DPS. Imagine, being 25 ilvls ahead of someone and being 5 or 6 places behind them on the damage meters.
Mythic plus has absolutely ruined raiding in terms of reward - because why would you run content that you can only run one time a week for loot, when you can literally spam mythic plus over and over and over and over 24/7/365 for same ilvl pieces.
Mythic plus is the worst thing about world of warcraft, and I knew when it was introduced in MoP as challenge modes that it was going to be a bad thing long term.
It also gives players a false sense of their power and skill. I hate m+ and I hate blizzard for introducing such a loot pinata system. It’s literally an endless farm of loot.
During Shadowlands I was constantly told to go “get your BIS trinket from Mythic Plus” - yeah well, I don’t need to listen to someone who is 25 levels above me and pulls such weak numbers.
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I’m genuinely unsure what this has to do with M+ gear versus raid gear. If those players were 25 item levels above you from raid gear would you not have out-damaged them by a similar amount? Better players will perform better independent of gear.
But it’s also the main reason why many people play WoW. I will certainly agree it breaks the mold that WoW has prior to its introduction. And for players who much prefer the previous mold I can certainly understand the frustration toward resources and player attention shifting away from how you want to play the game.
And while I acknowledge you didn’t make such a claim, the main takeaway of nearly all of these posts (including this one) is that M+ need to be removed or significantly worsened because raid is relatively less important now. Throughout the course of the discussion in the post some suggestions to improve raid might come up, but the author of the post is nearly always advocating for tearing down M+ in some way under the guise that the game will be improved as a result.
The reality is a healthy portion of the player base enjoys M+ for whatever their reasons are. So these posts receive a lot of pushback because it is essentially one group of people asserting their way of playing the game is the right way and all other “wrong” ways should be clearly inferior if not outright removed.
From my perspective, M+ is the best thing about WoW. It’s fine for you and I to disagree on this point, and I’m happy to engage in discussions on ways that will improve raid. It’s just we’ve seen what happens to the game when it fully embodies raid or die - it nearly dies - and nobody will convince me going back to that world will be better for the game. Potentially more significantly to me personally is that I am not willing to give up the essence of my favorite game mode to go back to a model that was waning by the time M+ was introduced and no guarantees that the previous players would return anyway.
That’s one big high horse you’re talking down to us from here. There has never been a player power system that has prevented worse players from becoming more powerful through extra gameplay. It’s actually one of the main points of an RPG. But like you pointed out, a clearly superior player such as yourself will still outperform those plebians so what does it even matter? Once you get more gear to match theirs you will outperform them even more.
I do agree the M+ gearing system is too lucrative and should change. But that’s because its rewards are too great relative to the rewards for completing similar challenges in raid. It certainly has nothing to do with allowing players to artificial feel more powerful than you think they should based solely on their skill.
You’re right that you don’t need to listen to those players, you do you. But just because they don’t perform as well as you doesn’t mean they aren’t telling you factual things. For many specs every season, certain BIS items will come from M+. That’s fine if you feel the person telling you this information is so far beneath you that you want to ignore the advice, but you’re simply lowering your own ceiling by not trying to get that trinket.
And we can also ignore the 40% outliers Blizzard seems incapable of avoiding every raid tier…
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It doesn’t need to be removed. It fills a niche for people who like timed content.
It just needs to have its loot rewards adjusted to be in line with its difficulty and 24x7 spammability.
It is far too rewarding at the low end, and not rewarding enough at the high end.
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Log in on Tuesday to raid - Log out 3 hours later - Log in again NEXT Tuesday - Repeat
This would be a very large portion of players if you remove or alter M+ in a negative way and Blizzard is very unlikely to do so as people spending more time in-game is good for them.
The problem is there are no shortage of players making forum posts who feel their corner of the world is all that matters.
I think we probably need to define what low and high end mean because those don’t have consistent definitions across everyone.
But with that aside, I do agree that the high end needs better rewards, and in the case of between +20 and title contention there needs to be some kind of reward for players who decide to push but don’t make it to title.
Beyond that, I do think the key levels required to get heroic gear and up (either as a drop or vault) need to be pushed higher. I don’t know what that key level should be, but there’s no way +18 should give the same level of gear (after upgrades) as most items from mythic Fyrakk. I’m not too bent out of shape over the levels where you can get normal raid gear levels. I really don’t think there’s much of an issue allowing players who aren’t going to see the inside of a heroic raid anyway getting to feel powerful in the world.
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Love to see your source for this, since Blizzard doesn’t release any official data on subs, or player counts. Looks like you pulled this out of the void.
Wow does not have 5.6 million active players. I’d say 1 million at best.
Or, you could play alts, work on professions, PVP, role-play, play other games.
The irony is, players finish their characters a lot faster than they did in the past and just quit altogether. So, instead of raid logging for 4-5 months, they finish gearing in 3-4 weeks and you don’t see them until the next season.
I don’t get this mindset that WoW should be your primary game you play every single day of the week.
The entire concept of M+ just feels like it was born out of the desire by the Act-Blizz execs to pad their daily login numbers.
WoW isn’t a MMO anymore, they turned the game into a looter shooter like Destiny.
If we want to play the estimation game, the only report on numbers we got is that DF had less sales than SL (so less than 7M). We know generally that after a month or 2 in an expansion this amount of players drop by half or more. You also wouldn’t be wrong to say that classic players are active wow players as it is the same sub so maybe if you merge both you’d hit around 5M on average. It is very hard to extrapolate classic population as all we know are mostly raiding numbers, with no previous data on how big raiders are on classic compared to the rest. The raiding population is still very active on classic and not to be under-estimated. For example the biggest amount of log on wclogs for a class on classic SoD is 950k while for retail you barely hit 64k for heroic raids.
Shadowlands sold 3.7 million copies in one day. That is the only info Blizzard has put out.
The new BFD raid is widely popular in Classic. I wish the retail devs would take notice of how popular this style of raid is. I think Classic has more daily active players than retail does right now. I play both versions, and I’m on a huge retail server Moonguard and my Classic server feels just as populated or more populated as Moonguard.
SoD is crushing it right now, despite how the anti-classic crowd wants to paint Classic on these forums.
I thought I saw a 7M number somewhere, but 3.7M in one day seems reasonable.
Did you make up those numbers? Ret has almost 500k parses for heroic
Sod you can raid twice a week as well, so it would make sense they would get double the parses.
Mistakes were made from me as it gave me gnarlroot logs.
Yes for a whole raid the highest in heroic hit nearly 500k.
It’s still pretty impressive, for a classic game.
It shows for me that the raiding community is pretty much split in half. Which is something we saw with the forum poll about what activity people like best too. Classic wotlk for ICC so far has 530k as its highest specs (for 25m hc) and has been somewhat running concurrently to both SoD and Amyrdrassil.
This is an issue. I will admit that. Its annoying that M+ rewards vault items (at various break points) higher at the end of the week. If that is the case, shouldn’t the last 3 bosses in raid do the same?
I say this as someone who normally does at least the 8x 18-20+ keys a week for the multiple choices of mythic loot from vault.
But also the hardest part about getting into Mythic raid, is just having 20 players that can reliably show up. I know this isnt an issue for many, but I tend to raid mostly with people my age, who have families and jobs. Life happens. Needing to have exactly 20 players for mythic raid SUX… Its way easier to find 5 players for keys.
To you. It also gives players for which raiding isn’t their cup of tea for any reason a way to progress their character at endgame. Not to mention it gave much more relevance to dungeons that previously didn’t matter a few weeks after you hit max level.
You don’t like M+ and it makes sense you’d seek out the bad at every opportunity. But pretending any alternate perspective doesn’t (or shouldn’t) exist does nothing to help your argument.
How do you know the same group of players in retail are the same group of players in classic? Classic is a related but different game than retail. The popularity of game 1 doesn’t prove that the popularity of game 2 would rise if some mechanics were brought from 1 to 2. Maybe you should be advocating for new content to be added under the mechanics and game philosophies at the heart of classic rather than trying to take away the retail experience from those of us who prefer it to classic…
There is another population to consider for this. We don’t know how many players would be off in other games or doing non-raid related things in WoW if classic/SoD wasn’t a thing. I fully expect there to be decent overlap, but it’s impossible for us to really know.
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People account share all the time. It’s only a problem if there is multiple people using the same account. The persons account was not being used at the time them once they wanted the account back i no longer used it and got my own
Even when on the phone with blizzard they didnt even care as much as you lol. Cause only one active user was on it
Isn’t it easy because you’re doing m+? Can’t complain it’s easy when you do the things that makes it easy but yet complain that you have to do it because stuff are balanced around it. Can’t work both ways.
Theres different type of people with conflicting interests and designs. This wouldnt be a great solution when there are others possible. I think theres value in keeping it hard and would be an even more controversial decision to take than splitting m+ from raiding for example.
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I can only speak for myself (and so can you) but splitting them would make me consider quitting.
I mean obviously no, m+ doesnt really hurt for anyone still in the world first rat race. Also probably not for the early-in CE guilds. Where m+ hits guild recruitment the hardest are the late season CE guilds or the guilds that would probably be CE if they didn’t have roster issues for half the season. These guilds generally recruit more of the gear-oriented player base, many of who have now transitioned into a less time consuming and weakest link centered playstyle of m+.
The nerf to crafted gear this season is one step in the right direction. No longer can ppl spam 16 their way to near bis. I think m+ vault rewards should be adjusted to 470 and m+ drops be adjusted to like max 460’s and we’ll be golden. That or adjust the mythic track gear to drop on a sliding scale of the top 1% of m+ players for the week rather than just drop on a static level that becomes trivial once the season progresses. Or just get rid of the vault. I dunno why everyone expects to get bis anyway. When did that become a thing?
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