Has M+ gear rewards ruined raiding?

Community General Discussion
1304

Why do you think the gear goes to the officers and their friends, rather than to the characters who will contribute the most to winning the rest of the fights if you give them the gear? In my own experience it was people I wasn’t really close with who were upset with me when I spent a week of their time getting tier and trinkets for new recruits.

(a funny part of this was that we didn’t get that many upgrades for our undergeared priest officer that week, so he still had barely enough health to survive unavoidable damage when we finished the raid)

The way it seems to work out for players who don’t want to put in the time to fill their great vaults is that they still clear mythic, they just have to do it in guilds that are okay with them being undergeared compared to casual heroic players. Which may be a step down that they do not enjoy.

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1305

This depends how late into the raid the team is progressing, though. Yeah this tier the wall has been boss 8, meaning if you recleared you’d have your raid vault completely full by the time you got there. But in Castle Nathria, Sludgefist was the first major wall yet you needed him to get that third vault slot. In Sepulcher Halondrus literally pushed Liquid to throw in the towel on the race, yet you needed crabby boy to fill out the vault as well. And that’s even ignoring the guilds that will spend more prog time than top guilds on some of the earlier bosses that aren’t particularly walls in the same way.

Until guilds are able to clear the minimum number of bosses required to fill the raid slot of vault, they can be missing out on potential upgrades spending their weekly raid time progging even if they don’t extend. There will always be an argument that if they can’t kill the boss then they don’t deserve extra loot in vault, and I won’t try to defend against that argument. I just think that in a world where guilds can put hundreds of hours into a single boss, it feels bad to get NOTHING until you finally get over that hump. So long as all guilds are playing by similar rules in terms of getting loot out of vault, I don’t see an issue with rewarding progression with vault chances (again I’m flexible on the specifics of what constitutes progression for vault).

I would love for this to be part of the solution, but highly doubt Blizzard would bring in the resources necessary to make this work every raid tier.

It doesn’t, but you are talking in circles. You openly acknowledge Blizzard sucks at creating content and always has. So when someone who prefers M+ asks you how its removal would solve the content problem, you say they will be forced to create content.

These two passages are literal contradictions of one another. Players spending 14 hours per week under the current structure is the reason Blizzard doesn’t make new content. Yet the reason Blizzard doesn’t create new dungeons is because the current structure isn’t popular.

Have you ever considered that perhaps the players in classic were the ones seeking an alternative to retail which classic provided? That the popularity of one is completely separated from the popularity of the other?

Also, do you have any official numbers comparing retail to classic player counts?

So just how many people are you king of to be able to speak for?

But even setting that aside, aren’t you the one asking for WoW to return to the model it had 20 years ago? That the model that exists in 2023 is bad? I’m genuinely confused by your cyclical diatribes here…

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1306

I haven’t continually played since legion, so I’m not sure how it was at all times, but in BFA your weekly non-raid gearing “obligations” were… 1 +15 dungeon run.

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1307

The devs didn’t like this, they wanted to force more M+ runs per week.

1308

M+ loot was significantly lower item level than raid gear, making it nowhere near the boon it is for raid progression today.

Do you have a source of this? There are a lot of possible motivations that I can fathom for the change, with this highly cynical one being only one such possibility.

1309

Mate… let me tell you about ap/ islands, pvp gear, azerite armor, the neck, essences, visions and corruption.

Was a wild time. I had a blast.

Huh?

1310

Good ol’ Conflict and Strife. I don’t PvP so don’t think I ever got that one.

1311

yeah I’m just ignoring the thing where the raid dropped blank gear. I won’t tell anyone to spend hours or days in islands every week.

1312

The absolute wildest part of this comment is how unself aware it is.

You are trying at making the stupid argument that the game should drop a game mode people enjoy, and if they don’t like it, they can just play other games. Which by itself would be fair.

But on the same token, fails to recognize that if the game is currently not meeting your desires, the answer isn’t to just quit, it’s to complain loudly on the forums about how everything is dying and everyone should play your way or quit.

Like I said. The argument is stupid and makes people look stupid. Personally speaking, I’d have more respect for those that make the argument if they at a minimum acknowledge that lol

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1313

Which is like 90% of the comments you make.

I only talked about the rewards. M+ should have stayed challenge modes, with mogs being the only rewards. The social pressure to run it is what I don’t like, especially if you just want to raid. If you can’t understand this, then I don’t know what else to say here.

M+ being mandatory is one of the many issues I have with the game.

I don’t play retail anymore, but I love WoW, if you can’t handle someone criticizing the game then put me on ignore.

This is the problem with so many people today, they can’t stand to see anything negative about things they enjoy. Guess what, people have different opinions, DEAL WITH IT!!!

I think M+ is boring, and it was a lazy attempt at trying to give players more things to do in the game without actually creating new content. It is very obvious that Blizzard is having trouble producing new content, it has been this way for years.

Why is it stupid, because you don’t agree with what I said? There is a huge chunk of players that don’t like M+, you’re just too biased to realize that. I’m sorry, but this comment was a lame attempt at an ad hominem here.

I think it is ironic that you’re coming at me and all you have is a few +5 clears and some LFR runs, you’re not even playing the game that you are vehemently defending on these forums.

Edit: I need to get off this thread, the mental gymnastics people are doing here are hilarious.

Bottom line, there are a lot of us that don’t like M+, that doesn’t make us wrong to hate a system that forces more play time in the game. It fundamentally changed how the game is played.

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1314

This is amusing. You shut people down who even try to have a nuanced conversation about this lol. You’re projecting.

It wouldn’t help because it’s not account-wide.

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1315

no i hasn’t

1316

I said why I think it was stupid.

The Argument: I don’t like M+ and think it’s ruining the game. It should be removed and everyone who doesn’t like that can just quit.

The Stupid Part That They Never Consider: If M+ is ruining the game for me, why don’t I just quit? No that’s madness, I should get the game changed so they quit instead!

I’m fine with people having differing opinions, as stupid as they can be at times. But at least be honest with yourself (not you personally) and others and proudly state you’d rather they quit instead of you just quitting on your own lol.

You already mention yourself you’re playing Classic and not Retail, so you’re already there, so the continued existence of M+ and those who enjoy it can no longer hurt you lol.

2 Likes
1317

Yes. That is what i said. ?

1318

The biggest issue are crest, the end of dungeons loot is irrelevant after week 2, but mythic bosses drop so few crest that you need to farm brain dead dungeons to upgrade or craft gear, that is the real time waster for raiders.

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1319

Most 2 day prog guilds rely heavily on extension to get CE, it’s not only the lost hours reclearing but the lost continuity of never having more than 3-4 hours doing the same thing in a row. It’s also typically going to result in much faster progress, even if you have less ilvl, which is good for guild morale / consistency and maintaining a desirable position to attract applicants.

There’s also the fact it currently takes 7 mythic boss kills to get the 3rd vault slot, that means your guild has to have killed smolderon and even if you have, some members of your 25 man roster (At least 5, likely many more) are not going to be able to get that 3rd slot due to sitting out for 1 or more bosses. Even in mid prog being able to be in for 4 bosses if your guild has downed 5-6 might not be possible depending on your class and guild’s desire to run kill comp for consistency’s sake. There’s just so many reasons why the raid vault doesn’t function effectively compared to the Mythic+ one.

Honestly I think this demographic is far smaller than you may realise. From the people I speak to it’s not a desire to do nothing in game but log in for 6 hours a week, it’s the desire to be free from obligations outside of those 6 hours. Raid logging is still going to be a thing, but mostly deep into a tier when frankly it’s already a thing now. People just wanna play the game on their own time and do things they enjoy.

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1320

I know, I’ve been in a couple.

I know. And it sounds nice. But it’s really code for “nothing besides raiding better drop or give something I need, because I don’t want to do it.”

Which means, the rest of us can’t have nice things.

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1321

Is really not just 2 day guilds, every guild extended after Zkarn and every guild is currently extending after Tindra, maybe even Smolderon before the nerf, but he is a joke now.

It doesnt mean everybody in the raid is fully geared, especially for rare items or trinkets, but with the upgrade system and crafting you have enough power to clear everything.

If gearing continue to be the same on the next expansions is going to be the norm to always extend, nobody wants to waste 1 full raid night to clear when is just better to spend that extra night doing more tries. Gear stops being an issue 1 month into the season for any decent CE guild.

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1322

It also depends on the raid difficulty, this tier the early bosses are easy to re-clear so there is not much problems. The more early there is a wall or a boss that you might lose time re-clearing the more you’ll extend early.

1323

By always extending I meant when you get to the last boss or pass a wall if there is one. Like on this tier everything was easy until Smolderon and after the nerfs he is not that bad, the real wall is Tindral and you are on the last boss after killing him anyway.