I don’t think most of these BiS lists mean very much. The differences between items outside of trinkets or cantrip weapons is just secondary distribution, and most specs don’t need to one-dimensionally stack a single stat or completely avoid a certain stat (like aug lol), so they can make a few different pieces work in each slot. For aug, which really does have specific favorite items for each slot, you get to use 1 more catalyst piece than most specs (belt), 3 pieces from raid other than trinkets and cantrip weapon (neck, back, offhand), 2 pieces from m+ (ring, boots), and 3 totally stacked items from raid (2 trinkets and mh). Other casters end up preferring the m+ staff to the raid cantrip items though. It seems like the real concern here is that the trinkets in the raid are too good, which keeps happening.
Honestly m+'s creation doesn’t even feel like the biggest factor. It’s not like this was particularly problematic in legion. Sure you had the rwf spamming keys to get legendaries and artifact power but not necessarily items for the most part. Heroic clears / reclears were a huge part of the gearing process still for most guilds.
I think honestly if we did something about raid’s acquisition of aspect crests, came up with an alternative to the raid vault, and brought back heroic week, it would do a lot to alleviate people’s implied need to farm / do keys to even out ilvl early on. None of those things involve directly changing mythic+ at all.
as a world last raider I was always down to do a hundred more keys to try to find a titanforged perdition relic
Titsnforging… I’d wiped that tripe from my memory.
that’s what you do when you don’t want to kill every rare in argus for veiled argunite to get a couple Relinquished Trinkets that might be ilvl 910+ arcanocrystals
No I did do that… That’s why I banished it from my memory.
I also got a 985 ACI (Catalyst) from our first Kin’Garoth kill.
Maybe not, but I’d trust wowhead writers for the individual specs to give me likely a more accurate picture of the state of specs that I can barely spell correctly than just try to assume a blanket statement that item level is close enough to represent power level across the board to be the only thing that matters.
Which is why I took the time to outline which items players were looking to get out of M+ and not just the number of items. Most specs want their weapon and at least 1 trinket out of raid, and at worst will be 50/50 on the armor pieces that like you said are boring stat increases that mostly come out in the wash.
I mean the most M+ pieces any spec wanted were feral druid and assassination rogue at 7, with the average around 3.5. There are 5 specs that want at least 8 raid items, and a spec with 9, 10, and even 11 from raid. Even if some portion of these lists have filler for the non-weapon/non-trinket positions, it’s still skewed toward raid.
Yep, which again hurts the narrative to which I was responding that M+ gear and raid gear are on equal levels so long as they exist at the same item level. Most gear is kind of a wash where it’s splitting hairs which is better, especially with the nature of secondary stat distributions changing the weight of other items. But when the most important item slots are more in demand from raid than M+, it gives credence to the players who claim that raid has higher loot quality at the same item level.
As said wowhead guide writer, blunt is correct. It’s not that ilvl is all that matters, it’s that between crafted, sockets, enchants, and the numerous stat combinations available for each slot what items you have drastically affects what items you want to fill the rest of the gaps. BIS outside of trinkets and cantrips is less about the items and more about the combination of stats, something that can be achieved in tonnes of different ways.
As a caster my bis weapon is iridal. Given I need vault to get it I’ll likely never see one at 489, despite the fact I’ll have killed mythic Fyrakk tens of times over…
BIS weapons for mage (3), rogue (2), priest (3) warlock (3), druid (2), shaman (2 but losing shield kinda sucks), DH (2), hunter (2), Evoker (1-3) all come from mythic+ vault this season. Vakash is a close second for priests druids shamans and evokers, but the value of iridal goes up if you find ways to use it on cooldown which many fights can.
Also vakash is weirdly kinda meh on Fyrakk alongside the other shadowflame weapons because it’s proc is frontloaded into the first 10%. Something that does not matter at all because P1 100-70 is a percent based phase.
That’s actually great clarification I didn’t consider.
I still think this feeds into what I was saying though in terms of not treating the same item level across raid and M+ as meaning both are equivalent in terms of quality of gear. At the very worst it is simply a lot more nuanced than a yes or no. For any spec that is after a 489 M+ item as BIS but where a 483 version is worse than what’s possible to drop from mythic raid, there’s still an expected value quality advantage out of raid. For any spec where the 483 item level piece from M+ would beat the next best 489 raid item, we can safely say the loot quality favors M+.
In most real situations 483 iridal beats 489 non cantrip staff but not Mythic vakash or mythic Dreambinder. Same for DH offhand glaive, rogue offhand dagger, and hunter gun.
After 5(?) Guild kills of Nymue we haven’t even seen a Dreambinder, and Vakash drops after progress ends.
I genuinely wouldn’t be shocked if more DKs / Warriors / Rets have Fyr’alath than casters have max ilvl iridals by the end of this tier.
Wing completion should reward crests.
Agreed. People would feel less rushed.
Don’t know what this would be. We had bonus rolls, dinars, wf/ tf and s2 crafting. People complained.
I don’t either, but a mythic raid vault that doesn’t really do anything for gear acquisition for raiders until after progress is over ain’t cutting it either.
Agreed. The great vault works better for m+, less so for pvp and raiding. I would definitely prefer some form of permanent dinar system.
I understand a lot of people don’t like shopping list gearing so full vendor is probably out.
But I’d like bonus rolls back. Or even a personal loot crate for each raid wing completion that also had 15-30 crests in it. I’d even settle for that legion vendor back that let you gamble on a slot for currency. Crests would work for that.
Just spitballing a possible suggestion that on the surface is rife with abusability: what if the raid vault layer would open up slots based on number of pulls where your raid reached or surpassed the level of progress you previously had on a boss? Kills would still count the way they do today, but if you started the week with an 85% best on Tindral, the pull at 84% then 81% then 74% would all give credit toward vault. I don’t want to get too caught up on exact numbers that constitute progress since I’m really just after the general system that might work, though such values would have to be defined for the finished product. This would align GV with what I think part of the intention for Blizzard is, that is being rewarded for doing content.
M+ came out 7 years ago. How much more time do you need to adjust, do you think?
The raid tab is really only a problem for people that are extending. I feel for them, but I also question why they are extending if they need the gear to continue prog.
I’d rather they do things like revamp gruul’s lair, onyxia or the wintergrasp vault raid. Something new or different every tier. And let raiders fill vault that way.
But I have a feeling that impact too many people’s desire to only play 4-6 hours a week.
Reclearing some stuff is hard. Many guilds that play 6 hours would get 1 night of prog or less if they didn’t start extending after clearing most of the bosses. Their players who showed up every week and don’t need ~anything will resent them at least a little over using their time to farm gear for other players who can’t be bothered to get gear from the great vault.
So they are lazy.
No offence mate, but if a guild of 20 goes into mythic and clears a few times. And the officers and their friends get gear and then decide to extend. Then turn around and get mad at the other half the guild who still needs gear and doesn’t want to extend…
That’s a trash guild.
Um, how does grinding the same 8 dungeons over and over fix this problem?
M+ is not content, it is a system that gives the illusion of having content.
You said the game is raid or die, but M+ is in the same vein as raiding in my book. High stress environment that breeds some of the worst toxic behavior I have ever seen in gaming.
So the game is basically raid M+ or die. As long as people like you keep spending 14 hours per week grinding M+, the developers are never going to make new content for this game, because they don’t have to.
Again, if M+ was popular, they would be making more dungeon content per expansion.
You make so many assumptions, but you seriously don’t have a clue what you’re talking about here.
Classic has no problem keeping people playing, so you’re wrong bud.
This idea that you need to play the same game for year straight 20 hours per week is so 2007 lol. You’re the one trapped in the past. People want to play other games, alt characters and other activities.