I’m just helping out.
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“M+ Players are brain-dead morons who replay the same old lazy, recycled content.”
“The huge number of players playing Classic (which is totally not lazy, not recycled content from 20 years ago) prove that M+ is bad for the game.”
I’m sure they would like nothing more than new content to be fair, if it was made on the same basis as older expansions (as many want “classic+”). The problem is that team is very very small xd It would surprise me if classic has 1/10th of retail team as it’s probably way smaller.
And I’m sure M+ people would like to get new content to be fair, it’s just that they’ve cut ressources.
Oh, I’m not making fun of Classic players, regardless of whether they want new content or are content 
with the current content.
I was just pointing out the contradiction inherent in the (heavily paraphrased) statements some posters in this thread have made.
And to be fair, as much as I want new content, I would also love to revisit old dungeons in M+ mode, especially many Wrath dungeons (some of which I’m 
we’ll get in TWW, MN, and TLT).
Yo, did this dude just admit to account sharing on the forums and everyone just glossed over it lol?
No. Potential is there but I’d say overall no.
IMO m+ provides an alternate way to grab top end gear for people who can’t raid or just don’t want to or like it. An option for people to play the way they want.
However. If you remember the badge “catchup system” back in Wrath where running heroic dungeons allowed you to get currency to buy raid level gear so you could get in to raids easier. That created issues because you had people coming into raids that didn’t know the raids. And that can cause a lot of stress points or overall group failure.
Raids have a lot of mechanics that m+ doesn’t.
So if you have some 470+ guys coming into a raids and they don’t know dodge this, soak that, pick this up and wait to drop it here for boss to do x and you kill everyone. It could be an issue.
But in my experience, so far at least (as someone who hasn’t been able to compete heroic yet), Amirdrassil (N) isn’t punishing enough to cause that problem.
Except it ends up being the PRIMARY way for people who raid Heroic and Normal to grab top end gear.
I don’t understand the mindset of the poster you’re responding to. I don’t understand why raid logging is a bad thing, this is how the game worked for 10+ years. This is what made WoW so popular in the first place.
People that didn’t want to raid log would work on professions and level alts, or grind gold.
Turning the game into a full time job killed this game for a lot of players. I don’t think the same 10 posters that defend M+ to death on these forums realize how awful this content has been for people that liked to just raid log.
Imagine attacking someone for not putting what you think is enough time into the game every week. What kind of elitist nonsense is this?
I loathe posters like Daarrk, they’re detached from reality, and they probably have an unhealthy addiction to this game.
I always butted heads with players like them that think MMOs need to be a full time job. People like him are trapped in 1999 EQ mindset.
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I mostly just sat on my mount in Ironforge showing off my gear.
So the people that dont raid log just eat s and die huh?
Inherently there is nothing wrong with wanting to raid log.
But when the desire is to make the rest of the game crappy to encourage it….
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Yep, if the game is active, makes people more inclined to buy game services, tokens and store items.
I don’t know why people have such a hard time comprehending this.
M+ doesn’t fix this though, they just added another way to grind gear. M+ is not content, it is a system to extract time from players. I want more content, and WoW sucks at creating non-raid content, they always have, and M+ is a horrible substitute.
It’s very disingenuous to pretend item level is equivalent to item power. It’s certainly a decent starting point, but if you really want to make a claim regarding how good raid items are compared to M+, you need to consider what items each spec wants to use.
I went through each spec’s BIS list on wowhead and compiled the stats for this season. As I’ve guessed numerous times when relative item power comes up, there are some specs that have better items out of M+, slightly more specs are roughly balanced, but the majority of specs have more BIS items out of raid. Being able to get the same item level out of M+ as raid does not mean, and has never meant, that you are able to get the same power level out of M+ as raid.
Here is that breakdown. Note that in the case where the tier list gave equal value to a raid or M+ item, I went with the M+ item:
Death Knight
- Blood - 8 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 1 M+ (1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
- Frost - 8 raid, 2 crafted (neck, wrist), 2 M+ (2 rings), 4 tier/catalyst
- Unholy - 4 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 5 M+ (chest, belt, 2 rings, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
Demon Hunter
- Havoc - 4 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, belt), 6 M+ (neck, shoulder, 1 ring, 1 trinket, 2 weapons), 4 tier/catalyst
- Vengeance - 5 raid, 3 crafted (neck, boots, 1 ring), 4 M+ (back, belt, legs, 1 ring, 1 weapon), 4 tier/catalyst
Druid
- Balance - 5 raid, 0 crafted, 6 M+ (back, wrist, hands, 2 rings, 1 trinket), 5 tier/catalyst
- Feral - 4 raid, 0 crafted, 7 M+ (shoulder, wrist, belt, boots, 2 rings, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
- Guardian - 11 raid, 0 crafted, 0 M+, 4 tier/catalyst
- Restoration - 7 raid, 1 crafted (neck), 3 M+ (back, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
Evoker
- Devastation - 7 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, boots), 3 M+ (head, 1 ring, off-hand), 4 tier/catalyst
- Preservation - 5 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, legs), 4 M+ (neck, 2 rings, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
- Augmentation - 7 raid, 3 crafted (wrist, legs, 1 ring), 2 M+ (boots, 1 ring), 5 tier/catalyst
Hunter
- Beast Mastery - 4 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, legs), 5 M+ (back, 2 rings, 1 trinket, weapon), 4 tier/catalyst
- Marksmanship - 7 raid, 3 crafted (back, wrist, ring), 1 M+ (1 trinket), 6 tier/catalyst
- Survival - 7 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, boots), 2 M+ (1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
Mage
- Arcane - 4 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 3 M+ (2 rings, 1 trinket), 6 tier/catalyst
- Fire - 4 raid, 2 crafted (back, belt), 5 M+ (head, wrist, 2 rings, weapon), 4 tier/catalyst
- Frost - 5 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 4 M+ (legs, boots, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
Monk
- Brewmaster - 6 raid, 2 crafted (belt, boots), 3 M+ (wrist, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
- Mistweaver - 3 raid, 1 crafted (neck), 6 M+ (legs, feet, 1 ring, 2 trinkets, weapon), 5 tier/catalyst
- Windwalker - 6 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, boots), 3 M+ (shoulder, belt, 1 ring), 4 tier/catalyst
Paladin
- Holy - 9 raid, 0 crafted, 3 M+ (back, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
- Protection - 8 raid, 0 crafted, 3 M+ (back, legs, 1 ring), 5 tier/catalyst
- Retribution - 6 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 3 M+ (belt, boots, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
Priest
- Discipline - 6 raid, 1 crafted (neck), 5 M+ (wrist, boots, 1 ring, 1 trinket, off-hand), 4 tier/catalyst
- Holy - 8 raid, 0 crafted, 3 M+ (boots, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
- Shadow - 6 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 3 M+ (1 ring, 1 trinket, weapon), 4 tier/catalyst
Rogue
- Assassination - 3 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, boots), 7 M+ (back, legs, 2 rings, 1 trinket, 2 weapons), 4 tier/catalyst
- Outlaw - 5 raid, 6 crafted (helm, back, wrist, belt, boots, 1 ring), 1 M+ (1 weapon), 4 tier/catalyst
- Subtlety - 3 raid, 3 crafted (helm, wrist, 1 ring), 4 M+ (neck, 1 trinket, 2 weapons), 6 tier/catalyst
Shaman
- Elemental - 6 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, legs), 4 M+ (back, 1 ring, 2 trinkets), 4 tier/catalyst
- Enhancement - 4 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 6 M+ (belt, legs, boots, 1 ring, 2 weapons), 4 tier/catalyst
- Restoration - 6 raid, 2 crafted (wrist, boots), 3 M+ (belt, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
Warlock
- Affliction - 5 raid, 0 crafted, 6 M+ (neck, back, belt, 2 rings, weapon), 4 tier/catalyst
- Demonology - 9 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 0 M+, 4 tier/catalyst
- Destruction - 10 raid, 0 crafted, 1 M+ (1 ring), 4 tier/catalyst
Warrior
- Arms - 4 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 3 M+ (helm, 2 rings), 6 tier/catalyst
- Fury - 5 raid, 2 crafted (back, wrist), 4 M+ (helm, neck, 1 ring, 1 weapon), 5 tier/catalyst
- Protection - 8 raid, 0 crafted, 4 M+ (helm, back, 1 ring, 1 trinket), 4 tier/catalyst
There are more raid items on people’s BIS lists than M+ even at normalized item levels. This is especially true for weapons and trinket, the two item types that most ignore item level as a metric of item power.
It’s not that we don’t understand how awful the content is for people who want to raid log, it’s that the only solutions that people defending raid logging come up with will have a negative impact on players who enjoy M+. Genuinely, I want there to be a way for you to be able to raid log if that’s how you enjoy the game. And if you were being completely honest with yourself, you can still raid log, and many do still play the game that way.
But the issue is that by just raid logging today, you allow other players to pass you in progression, players you’re competing with for raid spots and/or progression placement in the raid. So the fact that you can raid log isn’t good enough because doing so inhibits your ability to reach your progression goals, whatever they are. So then this leads to any proposed solutions necessarily requiring reducing M+ gear effectiveness in raid in some fashion. Such a solution cannot escape negatively impacting some portion of M+ players, which is why you get push back.
So no, the pushback you receive from those of us who defend M+ against suggestions from those who raid log is not simply because we don’t understand how awful the game is for you because of how M+ functions. It’s because we don’t value your fun over ours, and the only potential solutions you’re willing to consider do just that.
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So the solution is raid or die then, since the only content of value is raiding and everything else should funnel players into that and if you dont like it well, eat sh and die?
Like this is the main reason why i find most of the people who make this kind of argument stupid. It’s shortsighted and dare i say ignorant or naïve to suggest if we just kill every potential form of content that isn’t raiding players would finally just raid and be happy.
Baby…no. This isnt 2007 anymore. They’ll just quit.
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False.
Also false.
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Show me a solution that would allow you to raid log that wouldn’t negatively impact a camp of M+ player.
So now you can tell me what my motivation is better than I can? Seriously, that’s your argument?
In 2004-2008? I’m sure a fair number of people got into wow trying it on someone else’s account. I first tried wow on my college roommate’s account.
This is questionable. Just looking at Legion, there is a ton of new or revamped content. Class halls and their quest lines alone could be talked about at length.
M+ is just dungeons. WoW has always had dungeons. The difference is that M+ keeps them relevant after the first two weeks of the expac. They discussed how LFR helped justify raid design, how is m+ any different?
Legion dungeons were fun. Were they super balanced? Not really. But they told a story and each was different. Unfortunately, players complained and instead of getting fun dungeons we get 8 mdi dungeons.
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Yes the solution to no longer being able to do the thing I had been doing comfortably for a decade before the time commitment to do it tripled over night is to no longer do it, not question whether said time commitment tripling over night was a positive change to the game…
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What was the plan? Just keep keeping on as the game continued to die? Don’t get me wrong, game is still dying, but Legion at least bought us some time.