Implement dinars over rng dice rolling loot aqquisition and you may see an uptick in raiding. Kinda sucks when you are fighting 30 people over 4 drops, of which 3 cant even be used by you xD, and adding a deterministic method that rewards effort is never a bad thing.
You say âwhat a lot of people wantâ but what you mean is âwhat I wantâ. There is no âsolutionâ to this problem that doesnât simply turn it into a problem for someone else requiring another solution. Letâs not pretend to be arguing objectively here; you want to alter the balance so itâs more in your favour, and that undeniably comes at the expense of someone else.
Except that we have a literal 1:1 analogy in the game right now in the form of PvP, and can see the end result of that path. To wit: people who want to raid and PvP feel compelled to get raid gear first, fall behind in PvP, and stop doing PvP.
Unless youâre discussing redesigning weekly vault to allow gear from each content type (thus further speeding up gear acquisition across the board), limiting gear by content type is a surefire way to reduce relative participation in each type of content.
Behind whom? Itâs not a competition, you canât be behind anyone but yourself. There is zero inherent benefit to doing the raid faster than other people besides titles that the first on server gets and nobody else, and getting gear faster.
Again; there is no necessity for you to complete the content on day 1, week 1 or even month 1. If you feel you canât enjoy the content at your own pace and canât keep up with the pace you want without spamming M+, that sucks for you, but itâs a problem of yours and yours alone. Youâre making a lot of assumptions and working on the basis of those assumptions being true, when they simply arenât for people whose experiences arenât similar to yours.
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Youâre free to make a poll, I know raiders arenât liked on the forums but to think you think Iâm alone to want that youâd be foolish.
That is just not true, pvp gear with a vendor is very good and many pvpers have acclaimed it. There arenât many pvpers using pve gear as pvp gear scale higher than pve gear in pvp. Pvp problems comes from content when they donât even launch a new bg each expansions, theyâve pretty much let it die. I donât even think they had a âpvp lead devâ much since the last one left.
I mean splitting the vault aka removing raids from it for is an easy solution and gear can still be slowed down if thatâs the goal but thatâs in the bigger context. Raiding without M+ would slow it down decently.
If youâre playing worse you are affecting your own gameplay. While for sure the competitive part is important as players like to perform well.
I mean itâs not my and only my problem if people quit the game because the game doesnât respect their time. And devs have seen that with AP hence why they removed borrowed power grinds. Itâs not because you are fine with the grind existing and giving you a major advantage that other people arenât.
I think you just have a big bias like a lot of people if you donât think my experience isnât shared with many other people. And that what I am asking generally would make the game better for most people while at worse balancing the rewards systems of this game more.
Iâm not claiming to be unbiased, Iâm claiming that you are insanely biased while presenting yourself as âfixing the gameâ, rather than âfixing the game for meâ.
Every one of your proposed solutions creates a different subset of players, every bit as large as yours, who is worse off in order to benefit you. Iâm not saying youâre alone in your position; Iâm saying those who are in your position are a much, MUCH smaller proportion of players than those who casually do M+ and raid and benefit from the crossover of gear, or those who are better than you and do both willingly to eek out advantage where possible.
The game respects your time, by adequately rewarding you for the time you put in. If you choose to spam M+ to get your ilvl up, you are rewarded by your ilvl being adequately put up. This is not analogous to the AP grinds of previous expansions with extreme grinds or diminishing returns.
So, I repeat; if you choose to partake in grinding M+ to eek out advantage in the earliest possible time frame, thatâs a choice you make. If you choose not to, and you feel like it you donât want to raid without doing so, thatâs also a choice you make. Changing either factor negatively impacts another significant portion of players unavoidably. There is no zero sum change here; you want to trade off someone elseâs fun for yours.
I have brought my arguments and I donât think overall Iâm hurting anyone other than the people bag space at worse or people that fear that less people will do m+ because they donât need to for raids. It just feels for me that M+ people are so insecure that without raiders their content would fail.
You could say the same for AP and itâs still not true. Doing M+ or island expeditions for me is the same chore.
Repeating the same choice argument doesnât make it better. Itâs a bad choice. Bad choices are bad. The end 
If Blizzard puts the best gear in the shop you would have the choice to partake, doesnât mean it wouldnât be a bad choice. And that bad choices are bad by definition.
Resorting to insults in a discussion is almost always a sign that you have nothing to contribute to a discussion. The fact that you seem incapable of responding to someone without insults says more about you than the person you think you are insulting.
And there we have it. 
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You objectively are hurting people. Separating gear from M+ and raids means people who choose to do both need more gear to drop. Itâs not rocket science.
M+ doesnât need raiders; the irony of this argument is astounding. Raiders have literally made arguments for years that itâs perfectly fine for raids to hold people who donât want to raid hostage for the best gear; the first couple of seasons there is legitimate parity between the types of content and the raiders are the very first to flip the argument and cry foul.
There are a neverending list of groups for M+; you can safely stop doing M+ and nobody will miss you. I promise.
Except that itâs absolutely not remotely the same. First and foremost, there is an actual endpoint where you cannot get upgrades anymore, where there was never a cap on AP; secondly, because the gear that you get in M+ can and will be replaced by later drops, whereas the AP increases were permanent throughout the season/expansion.
The fact that they are both an activity you donât want to do doesnât make them synonymous.
:wutface:
The best gear isnât in M+, even this season. Both content types have the potential to get to the same ilvl. Youâre defining it as a bad choice because you donât want to do it; again; those two things are not synonyms. For an indeterminately large number of players it is a good thing and it not existing would be the bad thing.
Again; youâre presenting assumption and opinion as objective fact, when it simply is not.
People already drop all their gear from m+ so it wouldnât matter for people that do M+. So it matter for raiders? And most raiders seems more on the side that M+ shouldnât be needed to raid. You donât even raid much for example and are trying to defend people on my side of the argument?
Cool so weâre splitting it up, get the papers.
Raiders just want the best gear for their content to drop in that content, itâs not new itâs what pvpers wanted and they got splitted off. We want the same.
Itâs the same as itâs a chore to get into another content. Sure you could argue AP dropped from raid but youâd be foolish to only do raid for AP.
Most gear people use is from m+. You can get 489 gear from the vault, unless weâre talking trinkets which not everyone wants from the raid itâs a pretty moot argument. Moreover, the early power gain from M+ and overall is way stronger than a couple trinkets here and there that everyone wants and are heavily contested.
I think you just donât like the reality in which you donât know anything about as your lack of experience raiding seems clear for me. Your character has been created since 2019 and you still havenât even got an Aotc on your account. Youâre not part of this discussion. Literally just a raider hater like the others.
Only if Blizzard is making more money on microtransactions than on subscriptions, which I sincerely doubt.
Yes, thatâs all well and good, but the contention I was disagreeing with was that played-time metrics mattered MORE THAN subscription numbers.
Subscriptions numbers havenât mattered since the wowtoken and that they have stopped disclosing the metric. If they donât disclose the metric itâs because they are not considered a metric important for their investors which are the main people they want to cater to. Itâs way easier to sell global Maus or player activity increase (as those will always increase at content release patch)
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âMost raidersâ; yet another qualifier based on assumption and not reality. Most raiders never visit the forums, and certainly never post on them. Most raiders just go about their business and play the game. Again; represent yourself and your position, but donât pretend you speak for others.
No, because of the aforementioned people who do both, and the aforementioned effect of splitting gear.
This is getting cyclical.
The best gear for raids drops in raids. The fact that it now also drops in M+ doesnât change that. The gear from M+ isnât better than the gear from raids. Some trinkets have crossover (in both directions) and some gear is better in terms of stats, but you can absolutely gear up in either content type and get to a point where you vastly outgear that content type.
Asked and answered; itâs not the same. You see it the same because you donât like it, and see gear as a means to an end. For other people, itâs entirely different. Your experience is not the same as other peopleâs experience. Subjective vs. objective.
The vault gives 1 piece of gear a week, and the vast majority of people who are doing M+ are not getting 489 gear from the vault without having gear close to 489 on their character. Again; you are describing the experiences of a specific subset of players that is not representative of, definitionally, the average player. The fact that you and your type of player experience it this way does not make it representative.
I have multiple accounts and have raided in many server firsts in the past, leading as far back as firefighter prenerf. Your assumptions have yet again lead you down a false path. Youâll note that I have also barely done any M+ on this account either; Iâm sure you missed that in your rush to discount my opinion by virtue of account stalking.
Well then I hope Blizzard have learned their lesson on designing a game around âplayed-time metricsâ, because if what you guys say is true, it looks like it drove the MAUs into the ground. 
Yes because discussion are never much fruitful with a lot of the âanti-elititsâ sentiment on the forums aka raider haters. They just quit the game instead of making a post on the forums because they know most people here do not care.
Who does both content and really feel penalized by this outside of their bag space and inventory management? Surely not you.
The whole point is that gearing in M+ is a joke and devalues doing raids and makes it so raiders have to spend more time doing something they might consider a chore. Itâs poor taste to say they are equal when most people gear will come from M+ if theyâre any serious. Next to no one will play the game to only gear in raids as this is a terrible experience.
Then youâre free to share on your main and to see if thatâs true or not. If your last notable achievement is in Wotlk I donât think weâre talking about the same universe.
I mean Shadowlands 9 months patch release cycle was a fiasco which is why theyâre trying to do better on that part. At minimum in an live service game like a mmo moreover with a sub you need a decent cadence of content release. Thereâs even this strategy they have talked about (in a live service thing not wow) how you should not release patchs too big even if you have the time because then youâll increase players expectation in the futur.
Youâre making the mistake that you believe I care about your opinion or whether you believe me; I donât.
Nothing you say is objectively true, it is entirely based on assumptions that donât represent the way most people play the game or things that people will resonate with. Yours is the position that requires validation to affect change; mine is to maintain the status quo. Your penchant for presenting assumption as fact and later for running out of argument and attempting to attack the person instead means you are likely not up to the task, so Iâm not overly concerned.
Hereâs to another 3 expansions with raiding slowly relegating into obscurity where it belongs, and where developers keep shifting slowly toward the way the majority actually play the game. Or, at worst, more expansions of maintaining the status quo, where most can happily ignore raiding, and where raiders can happily ignore M+ (but choose not to).
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I mean the fact that you donât care pretty much just prove my points.
Classic is still growing with SoD and might get more content in the futur after it, it still use the old raiding model and still is popular. I donât need your validation, I will just play other games and people will keep leaving the ship expansion after expansion because the current M+ model is not growing the game. They donât even bother to put a seasonal affix and now use recycled dungeons way more.
Oh no!
AnywayâŚ
Player numbers have trended downward since after WotLK, long before M+ began. Another faulty assumption employed in a fashion to suit your narrative. Nothing Blizzard does will meaningfully grow WoW; the fact that SoD has some players doesnât mean itâs big or will reinvigorate the game. Itâs a flash in the pan, the same as Classic, BC, WotLK before it were.
The game is part of a dying genre, and if you think a shift toward raiding, organised groups, long gaming sessions and so forth are going to increase participation among the people who today have disposable recreation time, who currently spend their time playing fortnite and watching tiktoks, youâre in for a rude awakening.
Classic is the first time they had a player growth in many years. It wonât revigorate retail unless retail is ready to change, which my guess at this point is theyâll just do the same for retail and slowly it will die while classic will get new exciting products.
Thereâs like a trend here, so maybe itâs not just a flash in the pan 
I think catering to the core mmo players make more sense when the market is becoming more niche something that classic does better.
Assumption. They donât release player data. Furthermore, itâs not much of a stretch to realise that when you have one product, and you introduce a second product with a similar but different enough appeal, the combined number of players across both products will likely be larger than the single product previously was?
It would be a bit surprising if they went from one to two products and the net playerbase size went down, wouldnât it?
Yes; the trend being that people play the new shiny for a little while, get bored, then go back to what they were doing, leaving behind a tiny but avid player base amalgamated largely around a single popular server and numerous ghost towns?
Hey, you finally made an argument that wasnât pretensed by an appeal to majority or a faulty assumption! Good for you! I disagree with you, and seemingly so does Blizzard, but still, good for you!
So on one part you disagree but agree after . Iâll take that as a win.
Oh classic is alive and some servers bigger than anything retail has seen as far as raiding activity go. Donât forget that retail has crossrealm and crossfaction so it doesnât become a ghost town, something the Alliance was before they merged with the Horde.
Not really as they keep releasing new classic product 
Even for grinds they know that M+ is probably on the chopping block because anyone with a decent mind know that M+ has the same problem as AP. Same goes for gearing speed, it wouldnât surprise me if any nerf to M+ happen because people are gearing too fast.
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