Because you don’t seem to understand that Raiding, M+, Delves and PVP are separate progression paths.
If you do two or more paths, you make the raiding path MUCH easier, nearly trivially easier.
Your answer is … NERF all other paths, mine is supreme.
My answer is NO. My enjoyment need not suffer because you can’t stay in your lane.
Sorry your guild will kick you for underperforming. Make some friends that value more than your dps.
Like other people you haven’t been reading or listening to what I said.
It’s like the argument is already premade in your head just because someone want raiding, which you seems to hate, to get better then it means that everything else has to be worse.
They can fix raids.
Bring back 10 man mythic. Remove the lockout. Two simple steps to usher in the raiding utopia.
Make it accessible.
Make it on demand.
Make it on the players schedule.
But, the way to make raiding better is not to make m+ worse.
What you want is M+ not raiding.
Smaller size content, accessible, on demand, not needing a schedule.
As if you think that spewing 12720 posts will mystically get you your way.
Forum nonsense is one factor of feedback, and not a big one.
Your average survey is far more impactful on the direction of the game.
I’ve been raiding since the late 90’s.
Spot on.
Game is 20 years old, it needs to adapt to the times or die. 40 man went out the window, and 20 man will too. It’s only a matter of time.
And still didn’t get one Aotc this expansion. Are you raiding?
The last keystone achievement you did go back to Shadowlands season 1.
Are you playing this game at all?
It’s not because you hide your forum activity that people can’t look that stuff up.
This is my forum account. It’s too distracting for simple minded people, who think that arguments don’t stand on their own.
Raiding used to be that way, until neckbeards wanted to bring back on the hay day of creating a middle management opportunity for themselves. We already had the best of both worlds.
Less and less people are kissing the ring in 2023. 30k people finished the raid last tier. This tier it’ll be even less. A few more tiers of this, how do you think Ion will be able to justify the man hours to make content for 5000 people? 1000? Raiding is dying. It needs to catch up to the times.
Better is subjective based on your goals. M+ vault is better for bumping item level but far worse for getting any specific piece.
If they don’t stand on their own why did you bring up that you have been raiding for so long? Since you brought up experience it’s fair for someone to question that.
Maybe you’d like to know my education and net worth as well. Interested in the absurd amount of money I make every year?
Do you really think it changes my words? Do your words change meaning because you’ve achieved far less in life than I have?
Sad if you think it does.
I’m not nitpicking but genuinely curious here - is this figure really 30k individual people, or 30k individual characters? Just wondering how one gets ahold of the stats for the individual players completing content.
Tons of people still raid in wow and other games like classic wow.
Even with the forum poll they did more people said they were playing wow classic for raiding than retail.
M+ is the main culprit for many people and the main difference.
Less and less people play the game when M+ exist, are you willing to take the blame for that?
I meant the way it is designed it is better for M+ than raids, because for raids people do progression in them and might extend which means no vault. Bonus rolls are better designed for raids.
Citation needed. Lets see your source for this.
biased and tiny sample size, come on … are you serious … did you even college.
It’s really neither, just nonsense. They’re taking the fact that 1,655 guilds killed Mythic Sarkareth, then multiplying by 20. (Actually, by less than 20, but I won’t quibble.)
This ignores that:
I have but considering you are the only one attempting to argue in good faith but flip-flop on your stance repeatedly (not necessarily changing it but making it VERY unclear what you actually meant to say/imply), there’s not much to follow exactly. And the only other two who have been regularly interjecting here stating that M+ has a problem is a well known troll that wishes to see the game dead, and then Brewa who… their main way to respond to people is to post single images trying to shut down people, and run away screaming “I can’t hear you, lalalalala”.
No this isn’t a thread that can be followed easily exactly. So drop the attitude.
Well good news then, because you don’t have to run M+ unless you are the absolute most hardcore Mythic raider pushing for a Hall of Fame position. There is nothing that enforces you, there’s things to incentives and considering most people who like PvE in WoW like both raiding and M+ so this isn’t a problem (no I don’t buy the narrative of M+ being disliked overall by raiders as that goes counter to my experience, both in regards to casual heroic and mythic raiders across both the US and EU).
This whole “M+ is like a second job” is a false dichotomy. If you are playing the game at such a level where this is expected of you, then you have intentionally chosen to play the game at such a level (where most healthy design aspects of the game is completely irrelevant to one). Mythic raiding can definitely do with redesigns to make that more potent since it is a more difficult form of content (and again, it can be as simple as adding another upgrade level to Mythic gear that drops from raids or other things like that), but the number of people negatively affected by the mere existence of M+ as an additional activity is completely negligible. That means that this isn’t a systematic issue but a personal one.
Sure, but as I stated a long time ago this should be done if it is a legitimate problem. Which I doubt it is since again, every complaint made so far has a basis in a personal opinion and assumptions that aren’t based on reality. Personal experiences or not, changes to this degree is at a systematic level - not a personal one.
Personal experience is great as a basis for a personal argument, but if personal experience is literally the full argument … it isn’t an argument, especially not on a systematic level that would affect ALL forms of PvE in WoW, including Delves in The War Within since that will become part of the gearing pace and equation as well.
Why? Because if I have personal experience that run counters to you then one is at an impasse, but the difference is that one is trying to change it to negatively affect theoretical people and the other is trying to maintain the positive aspects of it for theoretical people.
So what is the fundamental problem? According to what you have said; you say that it is that people play the game.
When you break it down that is quite literally what you are saying. “Respect more of their time”; this means quite literally nothing. Raids take the most amount of time out of an any activity in the game yet you say that raiding specifically isn’t a waste of time (of which I agree with), yet … you are saying that M+ offering gearing through a process where you incrementally are able to perform slightly more difficult forms of content every week by incrementally increasing your gear is … not respectful of people’s time?
“Respect my time” means nothing when you don’t define it. I don’t think M+ is a waste of time or disrespectful of my time, neither as a raider or a M+ participant. So my metric is entirely different from yours because we have differing personal opinions about what this means so … AGAIN, we are back at this being a personal opinion and issue.
Look, having an opinion about M+ not being great for raiding is perfectly fine. But in this thread there’s not been a single reason given as to why that hasn’t been “I know a guy that quit because they said something about M+ and raiding in a sentence”. That’s literally the full summary of the entire thread. At that point things has just gotten utterly ridiculous, especially since it is largely if not entirely just based off of personal opinions relating to how much other people do both raiding and M+.
Yeah, I assumed it was either a method like that or just taking character stats from a site like raiderio. But neither is accurate really. It’s sometimes hard to have these nuanced conversations with heavy emotions when there’s really no objective stats to pull from. Or at least, I haven’t seen them yet.
About 1500 guilds killed Sark, times 20 people = 30,000. It’s a ballpark estimate. I see brewa pulled the real number at 1655 guilds.
But, in the ballpark of 1500 guilds out of 200k or so that tries to raid.
The wowprogress stats are pretty solid.
It’s been a while since I’ve looked there - are they able to distinguish between players and characters?