I think that’s an unfair characterisation. Some might’ve raid logged but many people just don’t want to feel obligated to play the game outside of the commitment they’d already accepted they were comfortable with, but still would and did play the game because at the end of the day they enjoyed the game for more than just raiding.
To be clear I’m not talking about the couple keys a week people do for vault being part of the problem. though obviously it has friction with the design of raid vault rewards as we’ve talked about previously. My problem is with the scramble to get a 476+ item in every slot from Mythic+ in order to reach the ilvl that the Mythic bosses you’re fighting are tuned for. Something guilds like echo get around by split raiding heroic.
I think they should make heroic and under no-lockout. Keep mythic the way it is, the extra loot commiserate with the difficulty of navigating the middle management simulator.
No more splits no more “forced” to do keys for hero track loot. Everybody wins, except the guy who wants to play 6 hours a week and be done with the game.
I think there’s some potential issues with this, though maybe they’re not detrimental enough to dissuade at least trying it.
1: Heroic pug raids are already heavily influenced by the drops from given bosses. The number of times I’ve seen a full 30 man raid kill council and then 2/3 of the group immediately leave after seeing if they got a pips or not.
2: I’m not sure how long heroic pug raiding / linear pug raiding would be able to last at all under that model.
Personally, I think the number of heroic raids that aren’t 10 man groups of only DK, Warrior, and Paladins would plummet to zero, but that may be my extreme dislike of raiding coloring my perception because I can’t understand why anyone enjoys it.
But, assuming people like raiding in the same way that I enjoy doing keys, I assume people would just farm their raid BiS over a few weeks, then spin up an alt to do it again.
We could also add in myth track vault slots for heroic raid. Because item level is already pointless with high keys and mythic raid existing.
I think for the sake of understanding the people in this thread it’s important to separate pug raiding in heroic and lower from Mythic raiding in a consistent group / community. As a huge fan of the latter I don’t enjoy the former at all.
One night we started with 14 got 2 drops each from first 3 bosses .
One guy in guild I raid with has done 80M+ by last Tuesday . And what sucks for him he is not close to best geared at least 2 in guild had better luck in valt .
My guess is after guild gets aotc they will run it 2 or 3 more imes and call it tell next tir .
Well in guild there is 14 that is 9/9 , Half do not raid with guild . Guilds 8/9 and on a good day only have 15 to 17 for raid . And that 14 up there is just guild we got a few xrelm I know 1 of them is 9/9 .
With out doing M+ you are capped at like 467 IL being a heroic raider only . Not 470+ like ones that do M+ .
Assuming nobody was saved, you just happened to get unlucky here. The formula for how much loot drops in a raid has two parts. The raid is guaranteed to get at least the whole number part when dividing the number of players in the raid by 5. If the remainder is greater than 0, you have a 20% chance times that remainder on each boss to get an additional piece of loot.
With 14, you are guaranteed to have 2 items drop because 14 / 5 = 2 + remainder 4. Then since the remainder isn’t 0, your group had an additional 20% x 4 (80%) chance to get a third item off each boss. While it’s unlikely that you would not hit that 80% chance in 3 consecutive bosses, it’s certainly not impossible, as you saw.
Everything you get out of heroic raid can upgrade to 476 with Wyrm’s crests. It will take longer than someone who is running M+ because of getting fewer crests, but you’d definitely be able to reach 476 during the season if you never set foot in M+.
His whole point though was healing is overpowered, and therefor Blizzard is designing mechanics to reflect that power. As a result players end up being 100% hp or dead when those mechanics hit. By nerfing healing, they can reduce the power of enemies so that when players take damage it’s instead healed over time instead of healed back to full instantly.
It was summed up previously as currently healing is about keeping players at 100% hp instead of alive and even went on in his latest video to say if it stays like this he is going to quit.
Honestly as much as I’d like to do less M+, I don’t think making the gear from it vanish would help the people that feel forced to do it in the first place.
There’s a good chance their guild would start looking at splits instead.
No, of course not. They’d be able play 6 hours a week and be within a few item levels of the super chads doing splits.
/s
See, you don’t have to try something if it’s too hard. There’s no need to do splits because that’s a them thing. That’s a Famed Slayer thing, that doesn’t affect us.
Mythic plus is very real and accessible in a way that splits are not. You can write off splits, but m+ is right there.
Yup, that was the explanation for the several nerfs. And nothing happened, instead it got even worse with DF. Way too spiky damage patterns are still a thing.
I understand that. The expectation is those guilds clear heroic a couple times. Do some keys. Then pull sometime in the first month. But many don’t. They chain farm m+ the first week then complain about getting burnt out. Same with ap.
The only other options are to nerf bosses into the dirt, immediately after the race or just release the raids at significantly easier tuning, making bosses like volcross or gnarl even easier then they already are. I don’t think people would be happier with either.
Upgradable raid loot did a lot to fix this (I pretty much just raided for transmog in Shadowland and DF season 1) but yeah, the end bosses of normal should drop Wyrm crests and the end bosses of heroic should drop Aspect crests.
You can’t tell me that heroic Raz or Sark or Fyrakk are easier than clearing a +16
Heroic endbosses are usually not even easier than the first Mythic bosses. For our guild it was the usual pattern, that by the time we’d gotten AOTC at least the first two Mythic bosses were already dead.
I don’t think the expectation should be to “run heroic for a few weeks” when heroic gets cleared on day 1. There’s a difference between opting not to do a large grind for a small reward and stalling progress for weeks by deliberately leaving 7+ average raid ilvl on the table.
Raiders ruined raiding. They had to add more accessible sources of gear to combat the intolerableness of the raiding community. If raiders want raiding to be good, they need to stop being a hate group.
