Sure. If it is a significant number of people who have this problem then I’m all for it, heck I’m all for it even if it isn’t a significant number of people (even if I’d then argue that one should have even more realistic expectations). The problem is that I can’t think for the life of me of basically anyone who really want to separate PvE into different classes of PvE.
It makes sense to separate PvP and PvE since they appeal to different people, but… I honestly think folks are making a bigger deal out of this than it is. If there’s over 3 million logged M+ runs on RaiderIo, and we can estimate that there’s about 2.5M-ish active WoW players across both Classic and Retail, and we know that roughly 20% of that total number of people actively participate in M+ as their activity and roughly 18% in retail Raiding … the numbers roughly match what we’d expect to see between crossover of raiding and PvE.
Of course a lot of these numbers are estimates and somewhat old statistics, but… nothing major has occurred between DF’s patches, so I can’t see for the life of me that this has realistically changed. But Blizzard are the ones with the more reliable data and don’t need to as much estimations, so they know more than anyone else here. However with everything we do know, it is a huge overlap between different types of PvE in terms of retail WoW, and even to a lesser extent on Classic.
So… I honestly don’t think it is the “problem” that folks think it is. One should still have a conversation about it but… not like how it has occurred in this thread. As much of this isn’t conversation as much as it is just abuse, bad faith arguments, and other crap like that.
In a game with multiple difficulties not everyone is cut out for the highest level. Whether it’s commitment, time, skill or whatever there is a mode for you. The problem is everyone thinks they deserve to be at the highest level without doing the things necessary to get there.
What a bunch of crap. Lots of people had no issue raiding Cutting Edge on 2-3 nights a week… and then came along M+, and Blizzard tuning the raids around it, and suddenly people “aren’t good enough” because they don’t want to spend 6 nights a week to do what they were doing perfectly fine on 2-3 nights a week?
If you really enjoy doing both things and dedicate so much time for both in the first place, gear just comes naturally. If I raid, I raid. There’s no way I can repeat the same raid difficulty over and over. In M+ the loot automatically comes in by farming score all the different keys on different difficulties.
Right now with both systems coexisting there’s a process of overgearing anyways, so additional gear isn’t even necessary to accomplish things.
Thinking back to MoP and WoD we never grinded LFR to get additional stuff for Heroic/Mythic. We didn’t even grind Flex mode. We just did some Normal and started quickly progressing from there. This didn’t change with M+. We still started with Normal to get the first drops and see mechanics.
2-3 evenings for raiding were NEVER a problem before M+ came, so there’s no reason why players should invest even more time now.
That is the point, people are running M+ to get an advantage in raiding. If you like M+, having your own gear progression would be better. I don’t get why people would quit if they enjoy both activities. This would extend your play time in both.
Exactly!!! I’ve been raiding in this game since Vanilla, and M+ was a guild raid killer. People just got burned out from the social pressure to run M+ on off raid nights.
I’d argue getting rid of hard lockouts and implementing cross realm raiding and loot trading is really what hurt guild raiding the most, at least for aotc guilds.
Except this is false. Laughably, hilariously false. 30k characters got CE last tier. 10x as many pushed above the loot rewards.
Just like every thread by people who want to control what others do in game, you’re projecting your PoV as the god’s honest truth, ignoring the fact that m+ is the most popular form of endgame in any MMO of all time, regardless of loot rewards.
I will never understand wanting to kill someone’s else’s happiness because you don’t like their hobby. I don’t like golf, I’m not out here lobbying for the removal of golf courses.
The restaurant across the street is taking all your customers, and you’d rather shut them down than change your menu. Raiding has problems that need to be fixed. Removing all alternatives isn’t going to get more people to raid, it’s going to kill the game.
Do you know how egotistical this comment sounds? You’re seriously delusional. I hope that you’re just exaggerating here for forum attention, because this comment is just utterly hilarious.
I did play. Nighthold being harder than Emerald Dream doesn’t mean anything. This current season is easier than the previous. Does it mean anything other than that?
How exactly do different lockouts hurt guild raiding? I don’t see the link here.
Cross realm raiding actually helped guild raiding a lot, at least on smaller servers. I remember being on a shrinking server back then in Cataclysm. On some nights we couldn’t go raiding because of missing players and we couldn’t even search for substitutes because there were none to be found. The consequence was that more people left for bigger servers and our guild disbanded. So did many others and the server died a horrible death with all raiders leaving. With cross realm we could’ve found some people and even searched on other realms to join us regularly.
Many years later I’m on a high pop realm now, but we still found people from other realms who wanted to try out the raidgroup and later gladly paid for a transfer because they were happy.
Probably why they’re opting for cross-realm guilds instead. Personally, I’m excited for that, but I’m interested to see how it plays out for guilds as a whole. It’ll be easier to “upgrade” guilds when needed, which isn’t necessarily a good thing for mid-casual, mid-hardcore guilds.