But you also can’t prove that number of people, either. Nor can you prove that number is greater then the number of people who quit the game when raiding was the only PvE endgame option or would have quit had M+ not provided a suitable alternative. There is more evidence, albeit highly circumstantial, to suggest the introduction of M+ was a response to raid appeal dropping significantly over the first 12 years of WoW.
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M+ has made raiding better.
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Right, because they tune the raids around ppl running M+
Are they though? They tune raid with the ilvl the raid drops. If you wanna take a shortcut with m+ that’s fine, but it’s only that, a shortcut. It’ll just make progression faster.
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If M+ gear is making the raids easier, then they’re tuning the raids around players having M+ gear
No they don’t, they stopped doing that with Nighthold after people cakewalked Emerald Nightmare in full M+ gear.
No they’re not. If you wanna clear 9/9 faster with m+ that’s your choice. But you can also get to 4/9 first week, then 2nd week with gear from both you can get to 5/9 or 6/9 whatever, it’s also fine. That’s what my guild does. We’re 8/9 heroic with no requirement to run any m+ from our raid leader. Where’s the rush?
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You must not even raid. Raids drop a pittance of gear.
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I do raid. I do both. That’s why I’m so against your idea. If I wasn’t raiding, do you think I would care that they’re separate?
Ok, then drop myth track and tier straight from the dungeons. I will not wait 16 whole weeks to even have a shot at being maxed lvl if I’m segregated in either mode. Or I will quit.
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There is absolutely no causal relationship in this sentence whatsoever. For instance, this statement is just as true:
If mythic raid gear is making Warsong Gulch easier, then they’re tuning Warsong Gulch around players having mythic raid gear
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And those who do find it boring don’t do that content. Unless you are pushing for the highest possible play where every advantage you can get matters, there’s no hard requirement for you to optimize your character to that degree. A lot of people do because they find this min-maxing to be fun.
But just because you hate it to the degree you do, Drunne, doesn’t make it boring for other people.
Here’s something which, I’m going to give you a lil’bit of a hint towards…
If you surround yourself around people who want to min-max to this degree and like PvE, most of those people like PvE in other forms as well. And those who don’t, but still wanna push this sort of mentality? You report 'em, ignore 'em, and move on to find non-toxic folks.
It is one of Drunne’s alts. They talk like 'em, use the same rhetoric, same personal attacks, and a whole other things like that.
So… it isn’t that they don’t understand retail, it is that they want to kill off the game. Something they have been rather explicit about before and in this thread as well.
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People fail keys all the time, at all levels. Some people are just bad at the game, get frustrated, leave, physically can’t do the mechanic or improve enough to do it, or so on.
For someone linking people pictures of blinkers and so on, you’re completely blinkered to your own experience of the game.
The irony that you complain that the game caters to the top 2 guilds while not seeing that M+ accessibility vastly increases the scope of the game for people who don’t want to raid at all is funny.
The fact that the top 2 guilds on your server went belly up because people “can’t spend 6 days a week just to raid” is a good thing for the game. Nobody made them, or you, spend 6 days a week to raid. The fact that the top 50 guilds see that as mandatory is nobody else’s problem but those guilds. The accessibility and reward of content that vastly more people play needn’t be balanced around the fact that top 50 guilds might see it as mandatory.
As per bloody always; if the only way to get people to raid is to hold them hostage by having the best rewards, raiding is bad for the game by itself. There are plenty of people who just raid and don’t spend 6 days a week doing M+ who still succeed in raiding, and there are many, MANY more who have escaped the hell that is raiding thanks to the inception of M+ as a viable gearing pathway. The fact that it doesn’t cater to the specific point of balance that suits you is not a problem.
It doesn’t have to fit in that exact spot where it isn’t what the world first guilds want and it isn’t what the massive majority of the player base wants. but hey, this particular section of world… 20? to world 100? guilds doesn’t want to do M+ to compete in world #irrelevant races so lets wreck it for the majority? No, thanks. Pass. The game is insanely better for having M+ be a completely viable alternative to raiding.
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Interestingly, I don’t think they sound like Drunne at all. They sound like Jayawen/Tuwen…I can’t remember their other several forum alts now lol. They have a lot.
Anyway, could be neither, too! It’s irrelevant, though. I’m cool listening to others’ opinions and having a discussion. 
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Do people quit because they have to farm PVP gear separate from PVE content? No, because they enjoy that content.
This idea that M+ and raiding need to coexist and be part of the same gear progression treadmill is killing the game. It only appeals to a handful of WoW addicts that want to play this game as a full time job.
The 2 activities would benefit greatly from having their own progression paths. The devs could make set bonuses that would be unique to 5 man content, unique talent builds ect…
The end game is in horrible shape because the developers are trying to balance 2 very distinct types of PVE content.
If you like the content, then you won’t care about having 2 sets of gear progression, it would be a boon to you, since you would have more gear to grind in the content that you love.
This is some weird stalking here. You got issues, lol.
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Nah, just a good memory…except for all those alts!
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True, but I figured it is worthwhile to note since then that at least adds context to what they are implying behind what they are saying. But most of their rhetoric and lingustics match up to basically 90+%, so it is EXTREMELY unlikely it is anyone but them behind the user.
Again though, as I have said before in this thread - one can and should have a nuanced conversation about gear, loot, progress, game modes, and the interchangeability between them. I understand some of Brewa’s concern and others but most of it seems like purposefully ignoring the things that one could actually discuss to make things better for everyone involved.
Ideas such as pushing raiding upwards in terms of gearing progression. Why not make Mythic raids offer additional gear? Or an additional upgrade slot for their pieces? Or anything else like that. There is nuance to a conversation like this… but there’s so many bad-faith actors who just want to say “it is my way or the high way” that it becomes ultimately a pointless exercise.
Since Drunne is one of 'em, I honestly feel like it is a worthwhile notice to make that it is most likely one of their alts.
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I doubt people participating in high ranking pvp also participate in high ranking pve so imo that’s mostly irrelevant. And again, you absolutely can do pve and pvp in either gear, and is completely different gameplay and gear acquisition style anyway.
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There’s no doubt that a lot of people would quit doing M+. But that’s fine because those people who would quite are those who are just running M+ for gear, not because it’s so much fun to them. PvP is not the biggest pillar of endgame, but the people who play it are dedicated and do it because they find PvP exciting.
For players who do both, nothing changes. They run M+ and collect gear through that. And they run raids and also collect gear. No big deal imo.
I almost quit raiding during BfA when my guild was much more progress-oriented before leadership changed a bit. At that point the raidleaders and officers had already scolded me two times for not doing M+ and taking raiding more seriously. I didn’t have a real choice, because other guilds would’ve probably kicked me out already, so changing the guild wasn’t a real option.
Later at the start of SL when there was a new raidlead, there was still some talk from time to time, that it would be great if I would try a bit harder and some members tried to lure me into keys from time to time. But my rio became somewhat of a meme over the years and it was a hidden rule that basically said “Don’t ever ask Nilann out for keys. You just set yourself up for disappointment.”. Sometimes it seemed like a harmless joke, but it stressed me out a lot, to be honest.
In DF it continued and in S1 I was really pushed into doing at least a weekly key and I dreaded these evenings. After raiding two evenings and one optional evening for lesser raid difficulites to catch up on some trinkets and stuff, I was so annoyed by having to invest another evening to a stressful activity I didn’t want to do.
Now I’m done. I don’t really raid anymore except some pug runs and my guild also stepped back from Mythic to casual Heroic without any loot council because raidleaders didn’t want to deal with the drama anymore. People constantly complained about loot and why others in the group get more loot, when they have a lesser gearscore. They should run more M+, yadayada, why do M+ players get punished for their efforts, yadadiyadada.
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I’ve raided in the past, but not presently, so I can’t speak to the issue with current loot drops, but I see a lot of raiders suggest increasing drops or removing lockouts (which is crazy to me if they’re trying to reduce mandatory gameplay). I hope they make some changes, though, for those raiders who prefer to not run M+.
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It also appeals to the players who simply want to do both but aren’t concerned with reaching the pinnacle of either. I can’t prove it, but I would venture to guess this is by far the largest population amongst players who have any interest in doing both raid and M+. You seem to be completely blind to any perspective of the world that doesn’t match your own here.
This depends how much time you can/want to devote to both modes, though. If the gear I get in raid does nothing in M+ and vice versa, I have to farm at least 2 of every slot compared to there being pieces that I can chalk up to being good enough for my purposes when I get something decent for both. Ironically in your pursuit to reduce the amount of time high-end raiders have to spend in M+, you have likely just increased the amount of time all other players who want to raid and M+ have to spend in both.
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