I’m not advocating for change either way, so I’m curious why others are.
I’m also curious how the unspoken rule of “raid must always be superior” got established
Why can’t world quest gear be the best gear? Because it doesn’t make much sense and would remove any feeling of progression in other content.
Wanting to be able to progress raid gear mainly in raids just makes sense.
It’s vastly more difficult content than M+, especially this season. Yet currently, M+ gives more, faster, and equally as good gear. The whole thing’s backwards.
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Neither of these things impact the claim, however. While your group is progging raid, you will get gear more efficiently from M+. But once most of the raid is on farm, that gearing efficiency shifts back to raid. That is all the claim says, nothing more. You keep wanting to add factors absent from the claim to try to tear those down. That is a textbook definition of a strawman.
I’m also curious as to how you can be so sure that so few groups have the raid on farm (or even just a handful of bosses).
This is verifiably untrue. My guild which only has a goal of AOTC by the end of the season with virtually no performance standards had normal on a 75 minute farm with an average item level of 460.7. That’s 15.3 item levels below what you get from normal with upgrades. Even now that we’ve hit heroic, we have 6 bosses on farm at 470.5 item level, 12.5 below the upgradable level for heroic gear. For all those farm bosses, we will get more from the raid than keys when looking at efficiency.
And yes, I fully acknowledge that gear efficiency doesn’t really matter for a guild like mine. There’s no way we need to min-max our gearing to this degree. We raid because it’s something we enjoy doing together, not because we’re worried about competing with other guilds; we’re not about to run a gearing spreadsheet to make sure every minute we’re raiding is the most efficient use of time. But that doesn’t mean we don’t still benefit more when it comes to gear from the time we spend on farm raids than we would if we broke into 5 key groups in the time it takes us to kill the farm raid bosses.
This is just not a true statement. You get the same number of items per player from 2 raid bosses as you do from 1 key. If you’re able to kill more than 2 raid bosses in the time it takes to complete 1 key of comparable dropping item level, raid will drop more items per player than keys. This isn’t an opinion, it’s math.
Again, you insist on adding more complication to counter a statement that was not made (at least in this context). If your ending raid comp will be heavily skewed toward a few classes, then keys might be more efficient for that group specifically. But if your raid group is even remotely varied, the more items dropping from raid is a more efficient use of that time. This is not saying that you will spend more time in raid for gear due to the lockout, just that while you can choose either raid or M+ for gear, you will get maximum benefit from raid until you are locked to all farm bosses.
Yet again this is a strawman. Saying raid is more efficient does not mean you will have a higher item level if you only gear from raid. I’m not suggesting players should raid log if their goal is to get the most gear they can in a week.
All I’m saying is that until you are saved to farm bosses, you will get more items per player per hour from those bosses than with keys. As soon as you are saved to those farm bosses, M+ instantly shoots to the top of the list. This is the reason why RWF guilds don’t just run 4 days of keys; yes they run a lot of keys as well, but they never miss getting all their toons through heroic and normal raid as well.
To be fair, M+ gear scales. It’s not as though you can go into a +2 and walk out with mythic level gear. Effort and difficulty is still tied to the power level of gear rewarded.
Which is why world quest gear does not reward raid level gear.
What makes one more difficult than the other?
Tuning is the obvious one. M+ 20s are incredibly easy this tier compared to previous, let alone 18s which are all you need for vault, and have historically always paled in comparison to anything but the first mythic raid boss.
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It does from my point of view impact it greatly. As you explain how time is spent in advance for the farms you get later. There is next to no progression in M+, you do not learn more mechanics you only do the same more efficiently.
I have multiple arguments, you do not know how strawmans work.
You just point any arguments as strawman.
Your guild has first terrible players if you haven’t cleared heroic by now, as pugs have cleared ahead of you. If pugs can clear ahead of your guild you’re no longer considered the average experience, you are behind. You’re only showing that your guild could be using that M+ gear even more than the average players. You have 6 boss on farm, you aren’t clearing the raid in less than 3 hours so even your comparison doesn’t work for your guild… xd
World quests could scale higher, doesn’t mean I would want world quest gear to become better than raid gear for raids. Efforts and difficulty also aren’t everything that is why pvp gear doesn’t work as much in pve anymore as it didn’t make much sense. People want a gear progression that makes sense and spamming M+ to make most of raid gear obsolete is bad design.
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I’d suggest that you go and do both, and see for yourself.
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Wanted to address this separately, RFW teams are not common players or even close to the common raiders. Anything they do is not considerate of what most players will or should do.
The RWF teams are buying loot from people by split running, they spend thousands of millions of gold to do that.
Do you think that’s an acceptable position to say you should spend multiple millions of gold so you can keep up with people that spam m+? And that on multiple characters so one of them get lucky enough?
If you spend 3 hours a week in a heroic raid getting 9/9 then that time would be better spent in 18+ keys if you weren’t already finding time for them. Its more loot on average, aspect crests instead of wyrms, and better vault progress.
If you aren’t managing 9/9 then it’s even more true.
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Blizzard shouldn’t be caving on affixes but rather tell people to suck it up. It’s infinitely replayable content. It makes plenty of sense to have difficult affixes.
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I totally agree with that.
I’ve been raiding for several expansions in a casual Mythic guild until last season. That means we cleared Heroic after several IDs because the endboss was usually pretty rough in difficulty and during this time frame we started killing our first Mythic bosses. Never managed to get CE except during Nyalotha.
So… by the time we got to kill some Mythic bosses, most people in the group already had several Mythic quality items from M+ and fully upgraded profession items (while I only had Heroic quality profession gear). I hated M+, so I tried to avoid it as much as I could, but it reflected very strongly in my equipment. My group didn’t blame me for that, but I was always a bit behind.
Sure it’s possible to gear up through raids. But it’s painfully slow and it’s not like raiding isn’t a time consuming hobby. We raided 6 hours a week with slow progress, while those doing M+ just breezed through high level dungeons and managed to get better equipment.
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Try to pug a 20 and then try to pug AOTC.
And note that a 20 will give Myth track while AOTC is still hero gear in regards to vault
The claim is that 2 raid bosses drop the same amount of loot per player as 1 key until you’re saved, and thus whichever of these you complete faster is more efficient. Whether your group is in position to kill 2 raid bosses before 1 key based on progression or PUG status doesn’t come into play as a way to argue against the first sentence. If your group would clear 1 key faster than 2 raid bosses, then keys would be more efficient.
No I really don’t. You literally keep adding additional factors to the claim that brought me into this thread and tearing those down; that is the textbook definition of a strawman.
Let me be crystal clear here, I acknowledge that for nearly all players in game and for likely everyone reading this exchange, this efficiency DOES NOT MATTER. M+ WILL be a better source of pushing item level overall because you can repeatedly get loot from it. Until a raid boss is on farm, it will be slower than M+. For many groups by the time the raid is on farm, it’s dubious the amount of benefit raid gear would provide. I don’t disagree with any of these points, and I would not be arguing with you if these were your points.
But you insist on attacking the base claim regarding efficiency, which is why I keep responding. To reiterate, all the claim is saying is that because 2 raid bosses drop the same amount of loot per player as 1 key, if you can kill those 2 bosses quicker than completing a key, you will get more items per player per time period from those raid bosses until locked than keys. There are a lot of factors that would influence whether that efficiency matters or if getting more items is even better based on the state of your raid’s gear, without a doubt, and I have not once challenged those positions. But you have been trying to argue against those factors as a way to discredit the efficiency statement in the first place.
Your statement didn’t talk about average, though. There are groups capable of farming some if not all the bosses while still in need of upgrades from that difficulty of raid, which is a direct counter to what you actually said:
I can only respond to what you say, not what you meant if those two things are different.
You’re the one who brought up 3 hours, not me. My position is about raid boss kills versus time to complete a key of appropriate level to get the same track gear, not clearing the raid, since you get gear off every boss. It is more time efficient each week from a gearing perspective for my guild to kill the 6 farm bosses on heroic than for every member to spend that time running 3 +17 keys. We get more out of that first hour of heroic raid gear wise in the current week than we would in the same number of +17 keys we could complete.
No, but that’s not even remotely close to the reason I brought them up. Even most HOF guilds have no need to achieve perfect gearing efficiency in the same way RWF guilds do. Time truly is money for RWF teams, so they are going to build as much efficiency as possible into their schedule to maximize their chances to win the race. The fact that they spend so much time in normal and heroic raid splits during the race proves they think that is the most efficient use of their time. If M+ were the most efficient use of that time, that’s all they would run before stepping into mythic.
I’d also point out being one of a few who are behind is workable because the odds are there are items nobody else even wants because they already got better from Mythic+ that you can scoop up. A whole guild trying to gear only through raids? Yeesh.
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I don’t feel you need to carry on. Everyone is free to make their opinion based on what you said. And I personally don’t see much value in continuing this discussion when you don’t agree with the reality and arguments I’ve brought because you consider a single result of a distribution the end of it all.
That’s like seeing a roulette ball hitting a number and saying that the only possibility is that one number.
Also you’re free to link me link to guilds that have gotten CE and never done a M+.
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I would be fascinated to see that, too. But I doubt any exist.
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I’m not really sure how you can possibly claim I think a single result of a distribution is the end of everything that matters. I’ve agreed with basically everything you’ve said here, just that they are ancillary points.
If your group can kill 2 raid bosses faster than it can complete 1 key of appropriate level, your group will get more items per player from those raid bosses until you are saved than you will from keys. This sentence is not an opinion.
I have never come within the ballpark of making any claim that any guild has achieved CE without running M+. Nowhere have I said, implied, or suggested that guilds should run their 1 raid per week then call it a day if their goal is to gear for a higher difficulty of raid.
If you’re in a guild where members will spend 10 hours in content for gearing purposes in advance of their raid prog, 8.5 - 9 hours of that time will be spent in M+ because there is no lockout. This high percentage of keys will also lead to a high percentage of items from M+ being worn on prog. All I’m saying is that while there are still upgrades to be had, that 1 - 1.5 hours farming raid at the difficulty below your group’s progression level will net you more total items per player than any 1 - 1.5 hour chunk of time in keys that drop the same item level as raid. That is literally all I’ve ever been saying in this thread.
For some people images are easier to understand than words.
Pre-upgrade system, I’d say maybe possible? Like if your entire guild didn’t do m+, and only raided, that’s what? 8 weeks to not need heroic.
You’ll need to find skilled players that absolutely refuse to do m+, and that’s a far harder ask.
Wouldn’t a better test be if someone can reach or surpass the ilvl that RWF players have by the end of the tier?