I think this is true, but the chances of having a successful pug smash a 20 key is almost 100% and the chance of a successful pug heroic raid going 9/9 in an hour is almost 0%.
That is the biggest difference.
I mean thatâs the argument that brought me in here, the efficiency one. You get more items per player from farm raid than the same amount of time spent in keys. Itâs fine if you think that distinction isnât important enough to care about, but that doesnât make the statement untrue.
I highly doubt the success rate is close to 100%, but I definitely agree with this sentiment. Iâm on record in like every one of these posts agreeing with your statement that M+ gear is too lucrative for its difficulty compared to raid.
But the gearing efficiency isnât just about PUGing, or at least it wasnât in this thread. They would be including guilds as well.
But more importantly for me, it drives me nuts when people who have a solid argument already decide to embellish their position unnecessarily with misleading or sometimes untrue things. If youâre able to farm raid in 90 minutes or less, you will get more items per player than any other form of PVE. That statement does not diminish any position that M+ is too lucrative overall, but it hurts the your credibility if you try to argue this efficiency doesnât exist.
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Absolutely and in the right week you can easily get a ton of loot. My shaman jumped nearly 10ilvlâs in a single heroic raid a few weeks ago after I won multiple rolls and people didnât need loot. We cleared 6/9H in like 40 mins.
this is a net positive
Why do people toss around âraid logâ like itâs a dirty word?
Raid logging means you spend 2-3 nights a week playing with your friends, and arenât forced to log in the rest of the week doing things you hate and make you want to quit the game.
What the hell is wrong with that? Sounds great, to me.
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And time-played metrics donât matter in a subscription game, and never did until some executive from Candy Crush got moved over to Blizzard and started throwing their weight around.
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Or they could just have a flag on the gear like PvP stuff. In non-raid content the gear is its normal ilvl, in a raid it is scaled down to LFR or perhaps Normal mode ilvl. Similar for Normal/Heroic/Mythic raid gear, in a key it scales to the +0 Mythic ilvl.
This is what I donât get either. It is people that want to no life one game that want to keep the game is this very anti-casual gamer state the game is in right now.
The fact that a 20 year old version of the game is kicking butt in 2023 says a lot about the state of retail.
Because MMOs are built around the principle that it is a living breathing world. So your options are to populate it with players or NPCs. When playerâs sole purpose is to act as a stand-in for NPCs rather than people you can interact with ⌠you are playing a lobby-game. Ainât anything wrong with that, but then you arenât playing a MMO if all you do is to login queue up for whatever you are doing (or in the case of raidlogging you log on, go to the raid, hearthstone, and now you are done).
Again, there ainât anything wrong with that ⌠but it is a bad thing for a MMO if thatâs all people do.
What you are calling âtime-played metricâ here is quite literally the lifeblood of all MMOs. Again, if you wanna play the game like a lobby-game thatâs fine. But the vast majority of players who still play MMOs nowâaâdays donât do that. It is quite literally the selling point of most MMOs to have living breathing worlds.
The difference is that in many other MMOs the entire world has to be populated by NPCs which in turn dictate where these MMOs need to focus their attention into, for better and worse. But WoW has enough players still where this isnât necessary. To dismiss everything and anything just because mobile games made the idea of a âtime-played metricâ into the abomination that it is on mobile games doesnât change that it still serves a purpose in certain kinds of games.
WoW is one such game.
It says that you are biased beyond belief and hellbent on doing your part in killing the game for everyone. All just because you hate M+ to the degree you do.
Mainly to gear up off-pieces. You can go into mythic Amirdrassil and get a better 2h off the first boss that is better than anything youll get off M+ all season.
No, the reason everyone spams M+ is for armor, to bring up their overall ilvl before stepping into raid.
You could.
You wonât, of course.
Forcing players to chain-run dungeons does not populate a âliving breathing worldâ.
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You see people move, go places, do things.
On its own, of course it isnât enough. But thatâs not what I said; if WoW became purely a game where you went from one dungeon to another and interacted with no one, then yahâ. Same problem. Not quite as big of a problem since you actually have to go to different places and the nature of how most folks engage with M+ means that you play with new players a fair bit (through pugging or picking up the odd missing player if you only got 3-4 players).
Regardless though, no one is forced to do M+. Just the same way no one is forced to raidlog. You can do more stuff; folks who primarily do M+ can raid, and those who raid can do M+. Of course thereâs way more activities than that but in terms of PvE, those are pretty much your only options.
Giving people a reason to continue to play the game past raid night is good for a MMO. Regardless of your personal opinions about M+, it is better for the game and very easily even healthier for the game than if M+ didnât exist. Raidlogging is indisputable a bad thing for the game.
Yes, Iâm sure thatâs why subs have been decimated since Ion turned WoW into a 2nd job for everyone.
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⌠the game is 19 years old. And it still has, using estimations and a bit of math from the small data we have, approximately 2.5M active players.
âSubs have been decimatedâ; no they havenât, they have been in decline for over a decade because the game is old. Thatâs literally all there is to it. What makes WoW unique is also what means it cannot go back to the 10M or even 5M active players it used to have. Subs are exactly, in regards to the estimates we have and small amounts of data that we can extrapolate, where they should be.
Hell, I bet that you donât even know why WoW got big in the first place if you think âsubs have been decimatedâ.
The problem is you need to do raiding and m+, to be competitive in the other. If youâre an m+ only player, you basically lose your BiS trinkets and weapons every tier. You canât be a raid only player because you need to be filling your vault with max rewards from m+. This forces players into unsustainable levels of playing each week in order to be relevant in their core mode.
Pvp already has the gear scaling up while within that content. M+ and raiding should be treated the same way.
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Um, M+ is a lobby game buddy. Youâre advocating for one of the worst offenders of taking players out of the game world here.
Get over yourself, notice how you donât get hardly any responses anymore from posters, people are just tired of your utterly clueless gibberish.
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So forcing players to spam the same boring dungeons over and over again is compelling content? Nah, the game was better without this crap.
Do you realize that people engaged with the world content more in the past before the devs started just showering players in welfare gear from M+?
M+ gearing has killed every corner of this game dude. You just canât wrap your head around it sadly.
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Iridial is really cool, but it has to crit each time to keep pace with Fyraak weapons. At least in my experience. My 483 Iridial on my priest usually deals less damage than the 1h intellect normal mace, you know unless it crits everytime. Vashock I think its called?
You quite literally canât âM+ logâ. Not in any real sense of what that phrase means. Because you can always do more of it, which is quite literally the opposite of what âraidloggingâ promotes.
And I did point out that M+ can run the same risk, but nowhere near the same sort of behaviour since there arenât lockouts. Which is ultimately kinda the point of it.
We used to do the same raids and dungeons for YEARS on end before and yet you have praised that before as amazing game design. Yet dungeons with affixes on a weekly rotation with different seasonal dungeons ⌠that somehow is too much for yaâ?
Make up your mind, hypocrite.
Except no, folks werenât. I have been playing the game since vanilla and folks were participating in any content that they could access. When folks could queue for things, folks queued. When folks walked around the world, folks did that. DF has outdoors activities and folks still do them.
M+ hasnât removed peopleâs ability or willingness to participate in the world. Folks still do it. The difference is that folks who play the game more actively participate in more content than those who simply log on, do their thing, and log out. Folks can do that with M+ for sure, but the likelihood of folks doing that is significantly lower since the initial bar of entry is much lower and more accessible. You can log on every day whenever you want to join a M+ and do stuff in the world in the meanwhile whilst queueing or just because you found stuff you wanted to do.
And no, M+ isnât a âwelfare gearingâ system. People overwhelmingly get more gear from raid than M+ and this has been proven time and time again. One can make arguments in regards to the power level of it though, thatâs true. But the idea of âplentifulâ and âwelfareâ are two adjectives that doesnât fit to it.
I would love to hear your argument how M+ killed folks ability to do Pet Battles, PvP, Roleplaying, transmog, or open world content.
Then address any of my points I ever raise to yaâ. You canât, you just make stuff up, attack people personally, and then declare yourself correct and run away.
The game is better because of M+, because WoW is amazing at PvE. But doing it once a weekâŚ? Folks want to do more of WoWâs PvE more than once a week and thatâs what M+ offers. You can dislike it, you can hate it, but it doesnât change that this is the core point. And before you even try to argue with me on this oneâŚ
SoD actually proves that people REALLY want to do the same thing over and over again. So even classic players showcase that they want the exact same thing.
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