The thing is you also do not account for progression time and the fact that most people pug that content it’s not a realist comparison. Players that can run the raid in less than 3 hours don’t really need much gear from that content.
Gearing in raid is only better if you account funneling vs no funneling but because then like I said stacking in M+ will still be better as raids are still on group loot vs personnal loot.
It took me way more than 9 M+ time to clear the raid on heroic on the first weeks with a pug and some guild raids don’t even clear up to the last boss on heroic.
When you calculate that M+ vault drop mythic gear and drop aspect crest for the time it takes vs mythic raiding it’s pretty absurd to think they even come close.
You also cannot remove that it is way more efficient to run M+ overall in the first weeks because there’s no cap. There’s no way someone that only do raids can competition with someone that do M+ in the first weeks, it’s not even close. If being efficient means being 10+ ilvl behind then it’s not efficient.
For people that pug and stop at heroic raid, it doesn’t really matter how fast they gear up. They have the whole season to get gear and is not like they are competing against other players.
When we are talking raids vs m+ gearing, what matter for people that raid is how much you need to do m+ to be ready for mythic raids and to be honest on this expansion the answer is not a lot, unless you are competing for world first.
On any decent guild you are going to be +480 after 2-3 weeks of clearing normal/heroic, with tier and better trinkets overall(with some exceptions). Besides doing 8 dungeons for the vault, m+ is not really a big issue right now.
Crafting is great to fill the gaps on your gear and with the upgrade system making normal raid items usable, you dont really need to spam dungeons to gear up anymore.
Not really, that’s the whole point if anything that for those people M+ just makes the progression irrelevant and most of the farm irrelevant. Most people do not mythic raid, if anything the mythic raid experience is less important.
And you can walk to a 50km/miles shop or a 1km/mile one, what do you think is the realist solution.
In the same way people that only do WQ gear ilv is irrelevant, is the same way for people that only pug normal/heroic raids. Why does it matter if they are 480 in 2 weeks, instead of 5 weeks into the season?
If heroic raiding is irrelevant you might as well say 95% of the game is irrelevant.
It’s a very bias point of view to think only mythic raiding should be relevant.
To some point yes, but that isn’t true when M+ does exist. It’s way too easy and strong to do M+. If anything if you pug your experience will be much worse if you do not do M+ for gear early to get into groups easily. How did I get into decent groups for heroic raid early? I was 470+ first week with M+.
Well, we have rotating dungeons now that address this. And yet…
So, if we got 8 new (as in, completely new, never before seen) M+ dungeons every season, you, what? Would you be happy with that? You wouldn’t, say, take to the forums and rage at Blizzard trying to shove a game mode down players’ throats, a game mode that you claim almost no one enjoys.
Because you keep ignoring arguments from players who disagree with you.
On another thread, I saw you fight with Akston over whether Blizzard would be able to pump out new, non-repeatable content on a consistent, high-frequency basis. (Though as far as I got in that thread, you never actually specified what this frequency would be.) Akston and others clearly pointed out that no developer, and especially not Blizzard, has ever been able to deliver on this fountain of content you keep insisting is possible.
RE: M+ gearing affecting raids, we’ve had several threads over the past few months on this topic, and each and every time, the M+ players, particularly the usual suspects, have agreed that M+ may be too generous with gear and that we’d be perfectly fine with adjustments to M+ and raid gear so that the raiders didn’t feel “forced” to do M+ when they did not want to. Again, this has happened MULTIPLE times on MULTIPLE threads.
And yet:
So, yeah, if you keep ignoring posts, players and arguments that, regardless of whether they agree with you or not, are counter to the quoted narrative about how you feel about M+ players, then, yeah, you’re going to get a lot of players pushing back with the same old, same old points.
Would only force people to have to do both even more than now to get the rewards from both, not less. Currently you can use raid gear to help your M+ prog and visa versa. Each having their own gear would mean you now have to farm EVEN MORE to have two separate gear sets for the content.
Lots of mythic prog guilds don’t require M+ farming. CE guilds might, but that comes with the territory. You should be dying to run M+ to gear up your character if you’re a CE raider.
The vast majority of CE players I know despise M+. In fact, most of the CE players I’ve known quit because of M+, since it turned playing 3 days a week into playing 6 days a week, and they didn’t like how raiding turned into a second job.
Screw M+. Build an iron curtain between it and raiding so that nobody has to do either if they don’t want to.
And the vast majority of CE players I know enjoy it, so there’s not really a universal opinion.
You would do irreparable harm to both in the process, through lower participation numbers and a much more agitated player base who now have to farm twice as much.
I have no doubt that an iron curtain would cause M+ numbers to plummet. The reverse wouldn’t be true for raiding since it’s already the worst way to gear in the game.
You’re not going to change his mind. I’ve been arguing with him on this topic for about 5 years.
He wants to play 2-3 nights a week, and he doesn’t want anyone who plays more to pass him. It’s that simple. Used to be, you could “finish” dungeons in week 0-1, and then just raid a couple nights and spend the rest of the time doing whatever. That’s why he’s against removing the lockout from raid, even though it’s parity, it doesn’t get him his time off.
He’s not wrong in that adding m+ now means that, to keep up with the Joneses, you need to do 1-8 keys every single week. For some people, that’s a lot. For me, that’s a Wednesday night, but to each his own.
But, building a wall between m+ and raiding isn’t the way to go. Further splitting the player base is not the answer. If anything, PvP gear should also be added back into the mix, it would breath some life into it.
On 2023, people want to be able to play the product that they pay for on their schedule. Someone who plays 7 days a week should surpass someone who plays 2 days a week. Not to mention the item level cap keeps it from becoming a runaway problem. You can gear cap a character in 50 hours /played, break it up however you like.
Edit: I have the utmost respect for Brewa. He advocates for his position with dignity and poise and doesn’t belittle or demean others in pursuit of his agenda. Despite us being ideologically opposed, he seems like a genuinely good guy.
Not really raiding will survive really easy without m+. It survived before and still survives on classic without it. It survives in other mmos without M+ ever existing. So now you gotta ask if people really enjoy M+ or M+ making them better in other contents.
And while some people will argue the utility problem of having to gear for both, if M+ gear still drop as much it won’t impact people progression for M+ so the problem would be for raiding? But raiding was still fine without M+.
