I went back and read about Delves, but I didn’t see any restrictions on how often they can be run. They mentioned keys for certain rewards, but that was all I could find.
Ok let me walk you through my experience of Mythic Aberrus step by step since we’re still on Tindral atm in the current raid.
Raid is 9~ bosses.
Week 1 we clear 9/9 normal, 9/9 heroic, and 4/9~ mythic.
Week 2 we clear 5/9 Mythic
Week 3 we clear 7/9 Mythic
Week 4 we go straight back in at boss 8, we do not reclear the raid until Sarkareth is dead 3~ weeks later.
So throughout progress we do 7 weeks and 17 boss kills, not including Sarkareth. 64 total pieces of 447 loot for a 25 man raid team.
In the 3 weeks we spent on sarkareth we got more max ilvl items total for the raid group from Mythic+ vaults than we did from the actual raid that tier. That is stupid.
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Just a different opinion and a much different experience as far as gearing/progression raiding.
Its not really about knowing more or less.
My experience has been when i was raiding progression kill bosses get loot regardless of system used.
Do m+ if you have time and if you dont have time then it was okay.
Again its not about knowing more.
Do you have another account / not connected armoury because as far as I can tell you haven’t progression raided, at least not for CE which was the focus of the point you’re disputing. If there’s a shiny trinket or weapon in the raid you’re unlikely to see it on Mythic before the last boss is dead, most of your loot will be vault items (Mythic+), Mythic+ drops, or crafted items when you kill the final boss of the tier.
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I have cutting edge raided/progression raided before.
Long story short for the account is that i was playing on a friends of a friend account and paying the sub.
That person wanted the account back cause there old classic guild like was coming back to the game. And we tried to like fix it through blizzard but blizzard doesn’t really do that. Tried conference calling a few times too.
So i had to restart my account.
Looking at my armoury right now I just realised I’m not wearing a single item I looted from a Mythic boss right now. We’re going to be on Fyrakk when we come back off break. 485~ ilvl, nothing from progress.
Same as you in fact.
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My main point is that you CAN gear from just the raid.
If you are saving your lockout because people still need gear which is what progressions ONLY RAIDING teams should be doing.
What… saving your lockout? We’re not talking about heroic.
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Im also barely raiding. I raided for tier and tried a few times for a trinket drop.
I have like a combined 40ish kills for normal and heroic.
I heavily prefer m+ due to work schedules
Did you not just say you saved your lockout for like week 4 of mythic? Straight into boss 8? Did i misinterpret that?
Once we reached the penultimate boss we extended the lockout and never recleared until sark was dead. This is VERY common practice as usually people are so geared from Mythic+ / Vaults that while there are upgrades for people from the previous 7 bosses, none of them are big enough to justify the time lost reclearing up to the point you need to progress from anymore. This also means no more raid vault slots and all gear from then on will 100% come from Mythic+ until the final boss is dead.
Hence my assessment that currently the majority of Mythic raid items acquired by guilds don’t even drop / have value for the guild because the final boss has already been defeated. All these cool weapons and trinkets (At least at mythic ilvl) really just help people push keys.
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I dont disagree with you. I do still think that some progression teams dont have time to clear dungeons tho.
I remember having some that didn’t that time so we cleared it everytime for those loot chances even if they were small chances.
Your point stands tho that with m+ and vault that raid gear specifically isn’t needed for those small gains and those smalls gains are seen more in m+ high keys.
I dont necessarily think im wrong either if you dont save the lock out either if some of your raiders cant do m+.
I do still believe you can gear with just clearing raid tho. Thinking about crests just now instead of it being valor isnt really something i considered tho cause i havent progression raided with the crests lol. So that part of it is on me
I hadn’t mentioned crests because I felt it was such a given that their structure for raiding is horrendous, but yes crests make it even worse.
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It definitely played a role in my thought process.
Due to the experience i mentioned in my progression raiding being so “different”
I don’t raid to progress i raided for some trinkets chances/weapon chances.
My work schedule doesnt really allow me to commit to a raid team like that.
I think it may have hurt Normal raiding. Heroic raiding and M+ seem to cross-pollenate.
The fact m+ is personnal loot which means you can stack 5 leathers and get only leather loot etc. and can be “on farm” first week is not even comparable to raids. Raids are way more rng and have way more competition when it comes to everybody wanting the same trinkets or weapons.
The time to clear a raid vs M+ is irrelevant in the big scheme as you are still locked when doing raids which is something you understand and also a point why people dislike M+ model.
That is part of the problem is you’re spending more time in M+ just to be able to min/max raiding. When stuff like borrowed power grinds have been removed because they were deemed something that didn’t respect players time.
While these are true, they are complete strawman arguments in this case. The argument I’m referring to is that raid is more efficient at getting items for the raid the first time in the week. If literally the the entire raid is leather then perhaps that statement isn’t true, but with an even remotely normal distribution your raid will get more items per player during farm raid than the same amount of time spent in keys. The statement isn’t concerned with any given player’s chance at an item because we’re looking for the items across the entire raid.
It’s not irrelevant, it’s literally the entire argument being set forward. If you have 1 hour to spend in WoW, you will have a greater chance at getting an item out of raid than M+ because there will be more items in that time. This is all the argument is stating, nothing about the long term gearing prospects.
Yes, most people having these discussions likely play enough that ruthless efficiency isn’t a requirement. I agree that it largely doesn’t matter which is more efficient because the infinite farming nature of M+ will make a slight reduction in efficiency unimportant. But none of that serves as a suitable argument against the efficiency of raid loot up until you are locked to that raid.
Oh I’m fully with you here. I’d love to see changes to make raid loot more lucrative for raiding. It actually sucks for both camps that the progression of one depends upon the gearing of the other.
It’s just completely possible to hold this big picture opinion that the entire system is kind of out of whack and that M+ gearing is too lucrative relative to its difficulty while acknowledging one narrow aspect where raiding has the advantage.
I disagree a lot with pretty much everything you wrote there because you think that comparing 1 hour of raid to 1 hour of M+ makes sense in the big scheme of things. The game is balanced around you doing both so you’ll want to do both. There is no world where a guild that push CE wants every of their raiders to skip M+ farm. If you’re only playing an hour or 3 of wow each week you are not concerned by this, you are not part of this discussion.
The power level you get early on from M+ makes it so you can skip most heroic raid farm if it wasn’t for the overpowered trinkets they have been putting in the raids or cantrip items aka very rare loot.
And that is even worse if you’re a solo type of gamer which heroic raid content is made for you. Because then M+ is the only reliable way to get gear as raids will never attain that “on farm” status.
The long term gearing aspect of the game has long been dead unless you’re pushing for mythic raiding. For most people with current systems gearing is “mostly” over after a month. Just for me with this patch I’m already 485, there ain’t much to look forward. Last patch it took about 2 weeks to gear out with crafting by the end of it.
I think Blizzard doesn’t care because it is padding their played time metrics.
Yes probably, and I think at this point they’re not willing to take much risk with M+. But I still think they might see that people are gearing too fast like from S2 to S3 of dragonflight and try to slow down things more.
I think current designs have mostly been going this way because of Blizzard war on raid logging, so maybe it will change if that philosophy change but with current people at the top it might not.
So there’s hope but for me M+ and borrowed power grinds means burnout which means that I’ll skip at least a patch on 2 if not more. I’ve played the end of season 2 so I could play the 3rd more easily and I don’t plan on playing season 4 and TWW launch. If anything launch are more hype than anything else and hype doesn’t work for me anymore, I prefer the more tuned later patchs.