And to add to this, mythic + added extra replay ability, that other people consider to be “repetitive” or “tedious”
I think part of this is due to group size - imo it’s easier to put together and manage a competent group of five than it is 10-30 people. And when raid bosses scale to the raid size, even 2 really poor performers in a group of 20 can prevent the group from succeeding.
I took a two year break in SLs and came back to DF in July. Started keys again in August and was incredibly surprised at how easy they felt relative to level. Fifteens felt like what I remember BFA 10s being like. And this season has only increased that gap.
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Not really, it’s just looking at the breakeven point where keys drop the same amount of items per player as a raid and realizing that the number of keys required to keep pace with farm raid is unrealistic. One key equals two raid bosses in terms of items per player, and it will generally take groups capable of reliably farming raid less time to kill 2 bosses than to knock out a key, especially in heroic where you have to bump up to 11 keys.
My guild is clearing normal in an hour, which is 9 bosses. For keys, we’d have to complete 4.5 +9 keys minimum in that hour to get the same amount of items on champion track, including travel time between keys.
So even ignoring the fact that M+ gear is much more dilute and considering any trades, you are highly likely to get more items per hour from raid than M+ until the point you are saved. The reason why M+ does more to push up item level per week is because you aren’t limited to once per difficulty like you are with raid.
M+ came immediately after the most raid or die expansion ever. Players have already shown that if the available endgame options aren’t engaging for them, they will leave the game. There’s no evidence to support the position that were M+ not an option that raid participation would increase.
These same people seem to prefer a system where we get to max, grind the same heroic dungeons for a week and raid log for the rest of the expac.
I am sure my response has been stated already, but just to add it.
I think the current season definitely makes the highest loot/reward end of m+ too easy when compared to raiding. Previous seasons still had this, but it wasnt as blatantly bad as it is this season.
I think m+ gearing has put a spotlight on raid gearing needing to be tweaked. It needed to be tweaked before, but it was the only option so we didnt have much context. Now its obvious.
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To each their own.
I think there’s enough to do in WoW that everyone can find something they like to do.
I think it’s silly to have an us vs. them mentality about it when at the end of the day we are all playing the same game.
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I agree. I’m torn on whether or not I think M+ needs to be more difficult, or at least reverted to the difficulty levels we had in Legion and BFA. On the one hand, I personally enjoy that structure and difficulty level. On the other, the current structure/difficulty level is far more accessible to folks who may have never hit KSM or KSH in the past. And with infinite scaling, that still allows for folks who want to push for higher titles or simply enjoy challenging themselves to run higher keys.
So I’m more inclined to say beef up raid loot or make other changes to raid structure (lockouts, etc) to bring it in line and make it more accessible, too.
As far as loot, I would like raid loot expanded on, vs m+ loot rate capped. Either more loot, bad luck protection for things listed as “very rare” with something similar to the dinar. A combo.
As far as M+ difficulty, I dunno. Just a little bit harder. I think 20s (or whatever the max loot key is) will always be inherently easier than mythic raiding for loot acquisition. Just because 5 people is easier than 20. And its spammable. I would like to see that tweaked just a bit though compared to what we have now (DF S3).
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I know it’s a different end game path, but the 30s being timed are SO much harder than where the loot ends at 20 it would be like if there was a raid after mythic where all boss damage and HP was increased by 150% and guilds were still clearing it.
Instead hall of fame guilds are walled on Tindral, much less Fryakk.
Current 20s are barely heroic raid level difficult.
Max level tier is in raid
Nearly all BiS trinkets are in raid
Embellished items such as that neck that does fire dmg is in raid
Thats 3 examples off the top of my head that are far better than anything in any dungeon this season.
M+ hasnt ruined anything its just become easier and more enticing in seasons passed due to loot tables.
The last two seasons have done a goos job of incentivizing the raid with items. They need to keep on doing that
489 tier comes from the raid and the mythic+ vault. I would guess 99% of the 489 items (tier included) are from mythic+ (I have 3 489 items so far and all are from mythic+).
While raid probably has more BiS trinkets and weapons than keys overall, keys do have a lot of BiS as well like Balefire, Iridal, Mirror, genesaur blood, etc.
Keys occasionally have embellished items like the auto attack ring from Court or Stars.
The biggest gap is just how much easier keys are than raids for the rewards, especially aspect crests. Basically any item over 476 is likely comining from mythic+ for the massive majority.
Can you not get tier that are more ilvl from raid if you are clearing mythic?
You are talking about ONE ring. Which wasn’t even good for some classes but they would run it anyways for free dmg but stats on the ring itself were horrible.
Aside from mythic level difficulty the raid is significantly easier than any mythic plus dungeon. On top of that the stress of the timer making it harder.
Now mythic level difficulty as for those that are mythic progression teams… that just SUCKS dying on the game mechanic at the same percentage of the boss. You only have to get it right once with only loss of your own time basically zero consequence.
Mythic+ if you die its over on higher difficulties. DHT last two weeks has sucked on anything higher than 20. Affixes make it so much more difficult.
I just overall disgaree with you entirely on the stance that its easier. Unless your stance is that loot is easier to come by in m+ by comparison
Between vault and catalyst being available week 1 every single piece of my 489 tier set has been from Mythic+
Most mythic raid loot isn’t useful for the majority of mythic raiders during progress, there’s so little of it, you extend the second you kill tindral and in previous tiers you’ve extended even earlier. Most Mythic raid loot ends up dropping on farm when things are over and the only use you’ve really got for it is, ironically, pushing Mythic+.
You gear for raids from dungeons and you gear for dungeons from raids, it’s backwards.
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I mean, I don’t have a 100% success rate in 20s even if my io doesn’t have any failed keys listed after Week 3 because it would be a lie to say I haven’t encountered keys where the group got hard-walled at a boss and broke apart instead of completion. Week 2-3 Rise was particularly cursed and had gone through 4~5 groups each week that imploded before having pugs that didn’t die to avoidable damage.
Yet with Heroic Tindral/Fyrakk pugs, there were only three groups I joined that either broke apart or that I left due to underperformers being kept in the raid and preventing the group from progressing.
Though that’s just from my experience of full-clearing heroic and doing 20s in pug groups from Week 2.
Its only backwards if you arent in a stable group.
If you have a guild group loot comes so easily/naturally regardless of system used.
Having ran a guild progression group we usually geared dps first then tanks/healers evenly. It was very much loot council but also gearing towards need.
Now when you are not in a group you just flat out dont get taken without ilvl anymore for raid. Because of m+ being available to gear.
You would literally not need m+ as a raider if you only wanted to clear raid. It’s been done before but you need to be in a solidified guild group. Same players every raid time whether that’s 2 or 3 times a week.
No it’s very much backwards for mythic raiders, especially those who clear the raid early or raid low hours and have to rely on extension to fit in extra progress time. All these fancy powerful items you keep mentioning, as a guild we see maybe 5 of them tops before we’re locked in on the final boss of the tier and unable to waste time reclearing.
You must not be clearing the raid to have this opinion.
He’s like the primary Shadow Priest theorycrafter in the world and HoF raider…
But yea I’m sure you know more…
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I’ve had 1 20+ key disband so far (a 21 WC) all season.