Its a social thing. I liked raiding with a guild sometimes, but life doesn’t give me time for that anymore.
Pre-Dragonflight, there was a lot of ballyhoo about how that was going to be the case, this time.
That plan didn’t last a month, they immediately caved in and started nerfing things, and then went so far as to remove seasonal affixes and add the gear upgrades, to make M+ even easier than ever before, and even more over-rewarding than ever before.
They even made it impossible to max out on upgrades unless you did M+.
The M+ playerbase is simply too spoiled at this point to deal with any challenge whatsoever that would be commensurate to the gear they get.
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Third affix at 14, what a joke.
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Raid gives higher ilvl gear faster than M+ so I wouldn’t say M+ did anything to raiding lol.
Yeah that’s why almost everyone spams the hell out of M+ in order to gear for raid the first couple weeks, right?
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Tons of people raided when raids had hard lockout, tons of people still raid on classic with hard lockouts. Lockouts are not the problem why most people do not raid mythic, it’s because that content is not designed for pugs and require a lot of time to progress. At best you can hope to clear the first easy bosses as pugs will rarely raid more than 3 hours together in a week. The raids are just too long and hard for pugs.
Making raids more like M+ isn’t the solution to people not liking the M+ model.
And I’m sure they’re really happy to some point with that. M+ has given much more than raids ever has given them when it comes to player activity as even with more players raids were less spammy. The funny thing is we’re hitting a wall now because of how fast gearing is that people have no reason after a month to keep playing much unless you’re pushing mythic raiding or titles for m+. And M+ might be seen as a problem if people keep gearing too fast.
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no. raiding killed raiding.
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Agreed. I loved the horrific visions (mostly) and the challenge they provided. Doing a 5 mask solo flawless was difficult but also fun. Doing a 5 mask run also rewarded a heroic ilvl award.
Honestly it is a shame that Blizzard did not have one of those in Shadowlands and Dragonflight. Torghast was designed to be a similar system but it ended up being used for either currency for legendaries or souls for the various covenant systems.
This will blow your mind. Every raid used the same lockout system mythic now uses. At least prior to SoO following the WoD prepatch. And Black Temple, Firelands and Ulduar after they were made into timewalking raids. Obviously LFR had its own lockout system as well.
So that means that ALL vanilla raids, ALL TBC raids excluding BT, ALL Wrath raids excluding Ulduar, ALL Cata raids excluding Firelands and ALL MoP raids excluding SoO still use the same lockout system mythic raids do.
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I’m pretty sure the vast majority of these people quit in Shadowlands and never came back…
But M+ has more than 4 difficulty levels and is generally completable. You don’t have players running an M+5 for hours throughout the week because they are stuck on Manifested Timeways.
The two are just not comparable unless you tune Mythic dungeons (just the base, no scaling M+) so difficult that players constantly fail on them for weeks on end to progress…or you add a scaling difficulty to raids like M+; let’s call it R+…
Did you see the massive outpouring of joy when the affixes weren’t even working at the start of season 2?
They’re not. Which is why the gear from one should not work in the other, just like it is with PvP gear.
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No, but taking issue with some aspect of the game and hate-playing an aspect of the game are not the same thing.
It doesn’t affect me currently, so I don’t care either way; I would be fine with Blizzard implementing this as an experiment. Then maybe we could get tier set bonuses specific to raids and dungeons. 
We already get tier bonuses specific to dungeons, like the Brewmaster Aberrus tier that was useless in raid.
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It’s Ion’s baby. He’s a soy Horde who rolled on a PvP server but hates PvP, simply because better players played on PvP servers Legitimately one of the most cringe type of WoW players and he’s responsible for deleting PvP servers. He props up raiding even though it bleeds subs for the game.
I’m not concerned about the gear do much as the crests. Why is it so much easier to farm crests in M+ than in heroic raids. At least give us 15 aspects’ for killing Fyraak and Tindy.
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He’s done nothing but crap all over raiding since he took over, he doesn’t even raid anymore.
Probably because they want to move the game to just M+, and they’ll just offer up old dungeons every season. Big cost savings for Blizzard when the game goes into full-on maintenance mode.
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I wouldn’t be opposed if a single raid boss gave full crests.
(90.)
Well, considering it takes 3~4 hours to get 8 keys done and 1~2 hours to clear a raid for LFR/Normal/Heroic and clearing the raid will cap you on crests for that particular difficulty for the week, it’s faster to cap on crests doing the raid until you get to Aspect crests which would be simply easier to acquire from M+ than the Mythic raid until your group has all of Mythic on farm but by that point, likely won’t need aspect crests anymore…
But for those that don’t want to do keys or push mythic raiding, they will still be able to obtain Aspect crests by trading in Wyrm crests albeit it will be far, far slower at about a rate of 15 Aspect crests a week, which they would be able to bank up over time. Like, if I cap Wyrm crests by doing heroic each week and do M+ to cap aspects, at one point if I didn’t feel like doing M+, I would be able to spend the unusable wyrm crests to cap aspects for practically zero effort because of the trade-up system.
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Wow, so trading up will only take a full month straight of capping wyrm and trading all of them up to aspect to be able to craft 1 single 486 item!
Of course you’d need to outgrow wyrm first which if only raiding may take a month or so.
What a deal!
Or you can do 16s which are easier than half the raid on normal for your aspect crests.
Or you take 6 full weeks of wyrm capping to cap 1 weeks worth of aspect crests lol.
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A normal clear takes 45 minutes to an hour lol
Augery, Beloros, Cataclysmic Signet and Fyraak Weapons all do significantly more damage than max level M+ Trinkets or weapons
They were saying on a time-basis, raid caps crests faster than M+ up until you get to Aspect crests. Some people don’t like M+ at all. All crests up to and including Wyrm crests can be capped faster by clearing the raid.
The context for trading up was that people who don’t want to touch M+ can get Aspects, except it will be slower and in my example specifically, me capping Wyrms in Heroic means there will be a week where I won’t need to spend any effort whatsoever to hit the Aspect cap for the week so capping Aspects in <2 minutes one week at the cost of having simply been doing the content I normally would over prior weeks is like getting PTO from the crest-grind.
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