Has M+ gear rewards ruined raiding?

Thanks for the list. I am familiar with most of these games, but I do not think many of them meet the criteria I was looking for.

Many of these (Warframe, PoE, D3, D4, Monster Hunter, DRG, Vermintide) are solo games that can be played co-op (I’m not sure about Sea of Thieves or Dying Light) which is not the same as a game designed around teamwork PvE, like WoW’s raids and dungeons.

(Some don’t even have challenging content. Over the past year, the Warframe devs basically admitted that, given the game’s core design, it was impossible for them to try to make truly challenging content and so they were no longer going to even try.)

I didn’t specifically ask for lobby-based PvE games, but I’m surprised you did not mention Wayfinder, which seems to be trying to make a mostly lobby-based PvE game (though, again, there doesn’t seem to be any group-only content). :sweat_smile:

They’re catering to these players because M+ is popular. I think a lot of people forget that before M+, dungeons became easier as the expansion progressed and stopped providing players with any challenge, leading to tedium and burnout and the “gogogo” mentality.

If anything, M+ saved dungeons by keeping them relevant throughout the expansion, both in terms of challenge and rewards.

I’m 99.9% sure that the reason Challenge Modes existed in MoP and WoD is because Blizzard fundamentally misunderstood why players kept trying to speed run Heroic dungeons.

It’s either that or the obvious solution, scaling dungeon difficulty, was not something they wanted to spend dev resources implementing and thought they could get away with lower effort CMs.

Class balance and homogenization is not a consequence of M+ but of 10-man raids, and its roots go all the way back to Wrath of the Lich King. Remember the “bring the player, not the class” design philosophy of that era? It had nothing to do even with dungeons in that expack, as the dungeons were seen as being generally low-challenge mechanics-wise.

The classes were designed, among other reasons, so that 10-man raiding with friends could be viable.

Players who hate M+ keep saying this, but I’ve never seen any real evidence for this.

If Blizzard truly wanted M+ to be an e-sport, where’s the e-sports league, a la OWL, for M+? Just because once a season (which translates to about twice a year) Blizzard hosts the MDI does not mean M+ was designed to be an e-sport. If it was, it’s been a complete and total failure on that front, as there’s no viable way for any gamer to make a living playing M+.

The other thing that almost every M+ hater seems to forget is that the MDI is different from live M+ runs.

In the MDI, all the character item levels are normalized, and instead of trying to beat the timer, each team is trying to beat another in real time. The timer could be removed entirely and the tournament would play out exactly the same way.

On live, you’re only trying to beat the timer; there’s no competition against any other team. And as long as you max chest it, it doesn’t matter whether you beat the timer by 5 minutes or 5 seconds.

And finally, consider that the Mythic raid race to world first (RWF) exists. Does that mean raids were designed to be e-sports? :thinking:

It’s not that we don’t realize, it’s that we honestly don’t care.

Lots of players like Classic. Great! Have fun!

I’ll be on retail having fun running M+ and raids. :sweat_smile:

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Heroic smolderon is free loot. You should look for another guild maybe

I’m pretty sure the reason Blizzard un-pruned in DF is because they panicked. Most of the abilities that they un-pruned make no sense.

My Warrior only ever uses Whirlwind when in Fury, as the other two specs have better / more fun options. (Granted, you can build Arms with WW in mind, but you still have access to it when it’s not useful.)

Why does Ret paladin have Shield of the Righteous? Conversely, why are there 2H intellect maces when Holy Pally has nothing to dump Holy Power with when teammates do not need healing when not equipped with a shield?

Also, I think Paladin auras are fantastic…so long as they are implemented meaningfully a la Diablo II. But in their current state they feel very “meh”. Would anyone really care if they had not brought them back (again, in their current state)?

The new class design / talent system has been a failure, IMHO, despite classes still being relatively fun to play. I’m hoping at some point they do another re-work of the classes from the ground up in a way that makes sense, not the clusterf*** of design we have now… :face_with_diagonal_mouth:

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Evokers can use them just fine.

It’s not only for paladin.

I figured that might be the case…however, I got the 2H int mace in my GV a couple of weeks ago and selected it…not realizing it was a 2H until it unequipped my shield… :persevere:

If you solely want to raid, go play Classic. M+ is a beloved pillar of retail WoW. People complain about it, of course, and naturally there are always ways Blizzard could improve, but the system itself is generally very well-received.

Thankfully, Blizzard is very unlikely to do what you suggest. If they did, I suspect more people would quit over it than be grateful for it. The game stopped being just about raiding years ago, and that’s a good thing.

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I think the easy welfare loot is well-received, but people by and large despise the content itself. Or, at best, consider it phenomenally boring.

The number of people who wake up every morning and say “gosh, I can’t wait to go fight hours and hours of DUNGEON TRASH!” is microscopic.

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Just like how people raided for gear.

If Blizzard just gave out loot like beta /ptr, I guess hit max level, log off? Have all the gear, and cause people hate content, don’t need to do anything.

The guild killed him weeks ago, I mostly pug due to my schedule.

I can pug into a +20 and know I’m about 99% sure to easily time and succeed because it’s so simple and easy.

Pugging the last 3 on heroic, as easy as they are, I know there is a pretty good chance it’s going to end in failure and disbands.

Even on a Tuesday?

Raid gearing would still suck without M+.

Anybody raiding for gear is a nitwit. Like I always said for years, even before M+:

Raiding is not about getting gear.
Raiding is about not getting gear.

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Should it even matter?

I can pug unfailable 20s at any time of day or night. Every run I know is almost fully guaranteed to be successful because the content doesn’t demand much of anything from the players.

The “hardest” keys for rewards lololol.

All the good players get it out of the way on Tuesday.

Then you have, the rest.

You can take 5 potatoes and time a 20 any day or time.

Yet you need to allegedly run it on Tuesday for an easy clear lol.

Yes it has. Your expected to M+ as well as raid. Raid gear means nothing anymore aside from tier early few weeks.

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And they slashed the amount of tier that drops in raid, you barely get any, anymore.

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I think raids should drop double the amount of loot or have people able to clear two times per week (But that would be weird.)

Don’t like how people need to dedicate a lockout if they want to extend, and can’t do prog on a Tuesday, then farm on a Monday.

They need to double the amount of loot (to bring it on par with 5-mans, per-person) AND remove the lockouts (since M+ has none).

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Don’t know how I would like removal of lockouts. Think that would not be enjoyable raiding early on at least. Once you can kill a boss, just repeat it until team needs no loot, and move on to the next.