Has M+ gear rewards ruined raiding?

Yea came at the cost of the main weapon. Worst experiment for wow, among expac long legendaries for MOP /WOD. BFA innovated on artifact power in a better fashion.

BFA borrowed powers was a fiasco. Sure corruptions were fun but really everything else wasn’t as polished as Legion artifacts.

Legion aritfacts sucked.

BFA amulet didn’t cause your other specs to become worse.

Everyone disliked that

You’d have a hard time convincing most people that Legion stuff wasn’t better than Shadowlands and BFA stuff. It’s the best expansion they did for many.

Idk about that…

Legion’s high point was m+.

Nothing to do with artifact weapons.

Legion high point was content like class halls and raids, adding M+ as something new and the badass borrowed powers it brought. People felt like it was a complete expansion and it had good patch cadence, new dungeons being launch during the expansion…

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Raids always happen so meh. Class halls wasn’t anything really, we had garrisons before.

Legion raids were still very high in term of people liking them. Meanwhile BFA and Shadowlands are pretty much one of the worse modern raiding expansions. DF is a bit better but again they haven’t done anything that makes your head turn around.

But I would separate Legion raids from Legion itself. Cause raids always happen.

I don’t see why but my point is mostly that content exist outside of gearing. Wow wasn’t even close to being super-focused on gear before M+ existed. Now it’s all people want because you fed the beast. So they can probably never roll it back.

But small stuff can be done so raiding doesn’t feel as old/obsolete versus M+. Making the upgrade system work in raiding helped a bit. Now they need to make aspects drop from heroic at minimum. Buffing loot by a couple pieces would also help greatly, tons of threads about raids just not being enough rewarding.

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Legion was the start of the Diablofication of the game. Sure, it had some cool content like class halls and artifact weapons, but a lot of the bad design choices started off in Legion that are plaguing the game today. Systems like M+, class homogenization, the battle pass style systems that are tied to the rep grinds.

Legion added a ton of stuff that just didn’t feel like it belonged in an MMO.

Blizzard had a winning formula, all they had to do was continue to add evergreen systems like housing, more crafting professions, they could have added tanking and healing specs to the pure dps classes, added more systems like Mage Tower that carried over into new expansions, but instead, they decided to double down on this boring M+ treadmill content that is basically the main feature of the end game now.

M+ has overshadowed everything, it killed the old school dungeon crawl, is cannibalizing raiding, and has turned the PVE end game into a big sweatfest.

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The only reason raiding is “obsolete” is because people have always been focused on gear. Gearscore came during wrath.

Most of that stuff was new so people were fine with it, they just needed to de-escalate stuff and roll it back after. The hype was great but was too high so after that it was a big down.

People have always liked gear progression, but there is a breaking point when titanforging was added and that M+ became this loot pinata.

It still is mate, and Blizzard wonders why they have poor retention for new patches.

It’s pretty simple. Wrath/ Cata had a shrinking but sizable player base. MoP/ WoD lost 90% of this game’s playerbase.

Legion was a second start. Unfortunately the million or so very dedicated WoD enthusiasts have done nothing but complain since Legion day 1.

And blizzard has tried to compromise. On everything. And as a result, nothing has felt great.

Pick a feature. Look at the timeline. Classes for example. Players complained about bloat. They pruned. Players complained about pruning. They added borrowed power so we could have new abilities but avoid bloat. Players complained about borrowed power. They added abilities and new trees. Players are now complaining about bloat again.

WoD had no playerbase to divide.

I mean, Hypothetically I can get 27 pieces of gear out of one Raid so perhaps we should reduce the ILVL of raids?

Shadowlands has caused a bigger loss than WoD or MoP by far.
Moreover 90% is a pretty big exaggeration. xd
If we had lost 90% of the population we would have less than 1M players and that just isn’t true.

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Raiders are the main ones who care about gear, because they have nothing else to look forward to.

PVP players care about rating

M+ players care about raiderio

Raid players get all their loot, and then complain when the other two groups are still having fun

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For sure it has. Now you are expected to spam Mythic+ in order to raid. Some of your BiS will come from Mythic + and not raids.

I don’t think there is any going back though. Mythic+ is firmly entrenched in WoW’s game play loop at this point.

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Agree on 10 man. They should also remove lockouts from raid. It’s an antiquated concept entirely.

Bringing back 10 man mythic and remove lockouts from raid. —> profit.

Imaging being able to do something you enjoy as much as you want in a game that you pay for.

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