I’m doing the same thing I did on the warrior forums. It’s funny, when I first started posting back in ToS, I would link to my mains over yonder on EU. But you know what I found curious? The people who would dismiss me entirely just because I don’t have shiny achievements.
So I stopped. And now I can tell who’s worth having a debate or a discussion with, and who’s worth just nipping at. Someone who can have a real debate, bringing up valid points, not using logical falacies, having a clear, constant, and coherent though process and word choice, who thinks before they post or speak.
As opposed to someone who assumes everyone that disagrees with them is just ignorant.
You talk a good game but you dont actually walk it yourself.
Ever so quick to judge others and poke holes in their efforts, when all the while you have none.
So you can have a totally sound argument, logical, accurate, supported by facts and outside sources, but because you don’t have an achievement the argument is fallacious?
Yet if someone in Limit made the argument, it would be more valid?
Youre just speaking vicariously though others efforts. Youre not making the arguments, You’r hitting copy/paste. Poking holes in someone argument because they misspoke, when its clear as day what they meant. That not a debate, thats just you being annoying. It derails the thread and offers nothing of value.
Reminds me back when I was in college. I was roommates with a girl who was in her 4th year of electrical engineering at the local University. I was down at thew trade college taking a few introductory courses to become an industrial mechanic (Millwright). One night we were both at the table having dinner and studying for whatever tests we had coming up, when I looked over at her notes and realized it was the exact same material. What I had learned in 1 year at a trade college, she had spent the last 4 years just reading about. Never touched a single wire. Meanwhile iv already been trained in PLC logic controllers and have physically written my own code to operate the machine that i have designed and built.
I ended up spending the rest of the year helping her with her studies and she would borrow my notes and books.
Moral of the story:
Hands on experience beats theoretical knowledge every day of the week. Actually helping others can be rewarding.
Picking battles and calling people out on small technicalities just so you can be right makes you a C%@T.
And yet I’ve made fewer errors, intentional or non, than you in the past five threads you’ve attacked me in. Fewer logical fallacies. Fewer personal attacks. More consistent with my points.
And your best comeback is convincing yourself, and others, that I clearly can’t play druid. There’s no way I could play druid, and not think that guardian, feral, and balance are garbage trash sky is falling apocalypse.
Have a pint and chill out lass. I’m quite tired of it.
Perfect wording " I could play druid" Exactly you dont, and thus you base all your assumptions off of?
Would you prefer to have a surgery done by someone who has both learned the books and hands on side of things or a surgeon who has only read about the surgery?
This is an important point. I’m not the serious player I used to be. I am much more casual. The low to mid range M+ are a fun challenge for me. Yes, I can do them on my Bear. But as everyone seems to agree, it’s significantly easier on a Warrior or Paladin or Monk. Bear’s weaknesses are just as real at +8 as they are at +18.
But the meaning is the same. Of course you can complete a +10 with a Bear. What I think many of those players mean when they say that is, “we’re not going to try this with a Bear, since it may be more difficult and we want to get through this as quickly and efficiently as possible.”
So just becuase one claim is sensible and the other is hyperbolic, the end result is still the same, “we’re not picking that Bear; wait for a Warrior”.
And that’s not good for the game.
Not all gear has those traits.
First of all, trivial content for you is challenging content for others based on their gear level and, yes, their skill level.
I don’t see anyone truly saying with conviction that a +10 can’t be completed. But it makes it harder. Harder for the Bear. And harder for the rest of the group. I think that’s why groups avoid Bears.
It was a quote. Oh, my God, now you’re not only putting words in my mouth, you’re deliberately taking a quote out of context. Which is asinine, because the actual thing I said is literally right there. No one would be stupid enough to not just look up and say, “Wait, that’s not what he actually meant”
No, pretty sure that by definition, the meaning is different.
You really don’t get it, do you?
People. Legitimately. Believe. That bear is not capable of tanking content. They do not think bear can go through without dying repeatedly or overusing kiting/coordination, and that it’s not possible to time keys in a pug.
You even see it in this thread, “without coordination with the healer/dps”, repeat, repeat.
OMG LOL. I love that, too funny. Stabprincess is like they’re not really bad, people just perceive them to be. Title of post, “Guardian Druid Stigma.” Thanks for the hearty chuckle stab!
And? So some people are a little misguided. What you are not understanding is that while some people may be misguided, others still understand that Bear is just not as good and as a result, Bears get invited less to groups because of it. And that’s not good for the game.
In a hypothetical M+8 you might be looking for a tank to fill out your group. In the queue there’s an ilvl 405 Bear and a 395 Warrior. I think most of the time the group is going to take the Warrior. They assume it’s going to make the run easier, quicker, and more efficient. They assume it’ll be more difficult with the Bear. Some may even mistakenly assume it’s impossible with the Bear. But the end result is exactly the same. The Warrior gets drafted and the Bear sits.
And when that happens frequently, that’s bad for the game.
That’s literally never not going to be a thing though. It’s never not been the case, it will never not be the case.
And, the bloody point for Christ’s sake, was that the two things are different. And that is what I have been arguing against with complete morons for what feels like months now.
Why can you people not read my words, not what you think my words mean. Again, two very different thins that apparently are difficult to separate.
And you keep saying this. It’s bad for the game. How. How is it bad that a spec is weaker? that ignorant people exist?
You can’t change it, no one can. Even in periods like Antorus, or even bloody right now, where tank balance is actually, relatively, good, that will never not be a thing. You can’t get rid of it. What’s the quote? “A person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, animals”
The crowd mentality, fused with anonymity, fused with the pugging environment. You’ll never kill that.
So drop that line of thinking, like it’s hurting the game now more than any other time in the past.
Well, I’ll tell you. But please dial back the hostility, ok?
Now, there seems to be a perception, rooted in truth, but also exacerbated by hyperbole, that Bears are bad in comparison to the other tanks. How bad is certainble debateable, but from my perspective, largely irrelevant. There’s a perception out there that when running a M+, you should try to get a Warrior or Monk or Paladin tank, and avoid the Bears. And that perception is rooted in the reality of Bears consistently lagging the pack throughout the expansion with Blizzard doing nothing over the course of the expansion to address the weaknesses-- weaknesses that have been presented since the Alpha. So that perception continues to fester and fester, and while the distance between the Bears and the top tanks may not be growing, it seems to be growing. Why? Because fewer people are playing the Bears and fewer Bears are being represented in high level content (such as high M+ ranks or the MDI).
But who cares? Why is that bad that people perceive Bears and being so far behind? Firstly, because it means those of us still playing the Bear have fewer opportunities to participate in the content. Secondly, it becomes a vicious cycle, where fewer and fewer people will try the Bear; and with fewer Bears out there, well… “I guess all those stories about Bears being garbage must be true since there are so few people playing them.”
I think I read that you agreed that the upcoming buffs should do well to help bring Bears up a notch-- maybe not to the top of the heap, but right there in the middle. That’s great. But if these same buffs had been implemented at the first patch, Bears might not have slid so far down in the perception of so many players. And again, whether that’s a fair perception that Bears are decent, but definitely behind the others or that’s a hyperbolic misperception that Bears are non-viable, both of those lead to the same result of less participation by Bears in the bulk of the content.
And to be clear, no matter which tank class it is, being far enough behind the others such that people begin to misperceive it as “non-viable” (which I agree is a rather silly description), it’s a problem that should be addressed promptly before it becomes really destructive to the spec.
It’s more directed at the people offering their “insight” in this thread that I’ve been trying to debate.
But it’s never not been this way. Even when tanks aren’t actually bad, they can get this perception. Same goes for every spec.
A bad reputation isn’t harmful because it’s just reputation. And putting stock in reputation is pointless.
I don’t like any spec being weak. I also don’t like people exaggerating that weakness and hurting more than helping. I also don’t like people who talk without knowing what they’re talking about.
There’s a lot I don’t like, and there’s a lot I can’t control. So I’ll just keep going around the forums, pointing out incorrect information, and knowing that nothing we ever do or say will affect how they balance or tune the game.
Makes it easier to try and have some fun with it. No disappointment.
Considering that FotM thinking is what makes the stigma to begin with, I was addressing the very reason of this thread. Correlation is not causation. Maybe you should laugh ar yourself instead.
When it results in certain specs becoming so undesired that they are shut out of participation, it’s bad for the game. There have been clear weaknesses with Bear since the Alpha. Those weaknesses created a gap between Bears and some of the other tank specs. How big that gap really was can certainly be litigated, but the gap was significant enought that people started overlooking Bears. If Blizzard had addressed those weakness earlier and worked to close that gap, the perception (or misperception) might have faded. But because the weaknesses lingered so long, the perception/misperception both spreads and grows, so more and more players start believing that Bears are weaker and weaker. So addressing it early helps nip it in the bud and it doesn’t become so widespread and so exaggerated.
Yes, there is always a best tank and a worst tank. When that gap is large, it should be addressed promptly. No matter who’s on top or who’s on the bottom.
I would agree that calling Bears non-viable isn’t constructive criticism. It offers no real perspective. It does, however, express passion and deep concern, which I think is also important to convey.
I think you’re wrong about this. Nothing we ever do or say? Do you really believe this? Or are you * gasp * exaggerating somewhat for a more dramatic effect? This statement is no different than that of those who claim Bears are unplayable. But I get what you mean about the ongoing issues with the Blizz Dev feedback loop. And I acknowledge your passion.
Another thing I’d point out regarding tank strength is the role of the mediocre player. People have made the case that a highly skilled Bear can do, say, a M+15 just as well as any random Warrior of the same ilvl. The Bear just needs to work at it and make better use of his limited toolkit. But what of the moderately skilled Bear? At this point, isn’t the M+10 to M+15 sort of the right spot for the mediocre player right now? Mediocre Warriors/Pallies/Monks should be ok in there. But should mediocre Bears be left out, unwelcome to participate? Most of the playerbase is moderately skilled.