Got my first taste of AV as alliance

I remember some alliance complaining about this version of av back in vanilla, never understood why, until I played it in classic. Blizzard does need to change AV.

But this isn’t a big surprise to say the least, we knew it was going to be like this since most, if not a large margin of PVPers went Horde because of how strong there racials actually are. Guess that’s what happens when you have a 15 yr old game being played on pservers for so long where people can assets the game for that time frame. Also not surprising that people are min/maxing and trying to parse harder then ever. And these are the players that are “Ruining” the game imo.

I am hung up on it because it is a typical statement that alliance players make that is absolutely ludicrous.

The cave is an advantage. If horde gets 10 players back to the major team fight faster than alliance do, the weight of numbers will tell over time.

But if you say dumb stuff like “there are 20 extra rezzing in that cave” it makes it sound like you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about because you flat out wiped them to get them to that state.

The fact is, moving the cave will not adequately address the issues alliance have on this map. One thing that would address them is to move the Treesus summoning location to a more defensible position and make him so he doesn’t bug out (honestly, I am not sure what the bugging out is since I haven’t ever actually seen alliance get him out due to aforementioned terrible summoning location). By making the Treesus summon location defensible, that makes SHGY an advantage. You hold it until you get Treesus then you take IBGY and head south with Treesus.

That is a minor change that would have a major effect. I honestly don’t think moving the cave would have the same major effect. Let’s say they move the cave back. The first major team fight still doesn’t happen in the fields of strife. It happens at one of 3 places: IBGY, SFGY, or SHGY. Personally, I think the first team fight would be a split between fighting at SFGY and SHGY. I also think Horde will rush whichever the alliance decides they don’t want to defend early. Ultimately, I think that puts the first major team fight at SHGY. I just think it takes a bit longer to get there.

Let’s not be disingenuous, of course the horde have several map disadvantages. However, they are far outnumbered by the horde advantages in both number and scope.

It’s not all about the map but it certainly contributes.

Not even sure this is quite accurate. It is more that the horde advantages come early enough to turn the battle before the alliance can effectively utilize theirs. I do think the scope is an issue.

Isn’t she just talking about the mechanics of 20 versus 10? And not necessarily that of “the ability for all 20 horde to rezz at the same time”?

It’s the mechanics that insure exactly what I had talked about. If the horde can just kill 11 alliance within the span of 30 seconds, that battle will swing in their favor.

That’s the problem. Of which you agree.

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Moving the horde cave a bit would help this too since then the initial fight could happen a bit further south and give alliance access to the current summoning spot.

Then you could move that spot onto a ridge with some cover just like the horde one and now it’s much more fair.

Nah. It is an exaggerated statement meant to blow a disadvantage out of proportion for what it actually is. And it is common. And it gets old reading it. Ultimately, the issue is that horde gets an extra 3-7 back earlier (that’s the most common number). That’s a legitimate concern, but it isn’t the biggest one by any stretch.

The cave can’t be pushed back because of the importance of SFGY.

What you can do is put the mechanic of “not being able to rez at the starting cave unless there are no GY’s left” Which was actually a thing in future patches. That would allow for a more balanced progression south.

However the horde still have the advantage there but it wouldn’t be as glaring.

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Disagree with this. Treesus gets summoned late enough that by the time he is being summoned the defensive positions will have been established.

By moving Treesus summoning to a different location, it allows alliance to hold SHGY and then roll through the horde. There were a ton of games over AV weekend where this would have happened and turned into an alliance win except the druids were too easily kited.

FWGY is not great for the horde, it’s very open and easier to take. The split horde base has some disadvantages too. Then there’s the alliance bridge which is an excellent choke point.

However, in the current game, most of those disadvantages never come into play for various reasons.

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If the map is at the stage where the alliance are fighting at the bridge choke, the game is likely over.

But the back door allows for anyone on the horde to get into the aid station and start playing hero and killing all the archers.

The alliance need to rely on the few stealth classes to play hero out. Or a real try hard who brought some invis potions…but on the horde side, ANYONE can play hero regardless of class! How swell!

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100% agree with this. The disadvantages don’t matter if the alliance never get to exploit them.

You want the cave moved so that alliance can have a chance at getting SFGY, defending SHB, attacking horde objectives, and getting their tree guy summon. You also want the summon area moved a bit to mirror the horde one because the alliance one is significantly easier to attack.

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Here are the quick points as to why alliance lose AV.

  1. Map
  2. Only PvE’rs queue up for it. (since HPH is terrible)
  3. Map
  4. Meta Scorch Earth (horde defending with 30+)
  5. Afk’rs, Leechers
  6. Map

If the horde meta changed from scorching the earth to a more offensive one. You would probably see more alliance pvp’rs queue up for AV. But, long queue times will make you squeeze out every inch of honor you can.

You seem to think the choke points belong to the alliance, when in reality, they are just the Horde’s Northern choke points

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And this is true too. Especially the IWB choke. When alliance have SHGY they rez in front of the choke so it doesn’t help them much. When horde have SHGY they rez behind the choke so it helps them a ton. The same goes for IBGY.

Honestly, if they wanted to do both, I wouldn’t complain.

Ultimately I want a good game. Those are both relatively minor changes that could have a major impact.

The best most advantageous choke point in the game is the one at IWBunk that prevents alliance from riding south.

They can ride south and just ignore IBGY altogether. It was 50/50 during the premade era whether Alliance would bother with IBGY / Galv or just go for the fast win.

Not saying they should do this. I am just pointing out that they can.

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You seem to think honing into one word out of a post is a really interesting point to make.