And we seem to get “Roflstomped”(as they used to say back in 2006) in every match. Is it a map issue or are we just bad?
I was in that battle with you as you were trying to capture SPGY at the end. Lots of people will give mixed ideas. Some will play the map card, and some will encourage the alliance to coordinate better.
The arguments here are deep, and often filled with hate, and anger. Lots of finger pointing.
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Yes.
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It’s the min-max meta of modern gaming at work. Any advantage is pushed to 100%.
This applies to gear choices, racial choices on both sides, as well as the AV situation.
We’ve reached a point where even alliance teams that are actually stronger than horde teams still won’t go south past SH GY. They’ll just sit at SH GY even if the kill ratio is 2:1 in favor of alliance. I’ve seen that happen several times over the past few weeks.
The only times when horde loses AV appears to be during AV weekend when you might get a lot of top ranked alliance players to join random matches (in groups up to 5) and cause chaos.
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I must say that Horde players are hard core pvp players. Most are in my opinion.
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The map issue gets in our heads and makes the majority of us bad.
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I’m going to try and map this all out for you. My main is alliance, but I have a level 60 horde that I’ve played AV on to view both sides. People will try and disagree but I’m pretty damn confident that what I am going to tell you is the truth.
To begin with, the map and game is obviously imbalanced in a variety of ways.
- The horde starting cave is significantly more advantageous compared to the alliance starting cave. They can reach Balinda roughly around the time we read SHGY (I honestly think it’s a little slower than us reaching SHGY and most alliance exaggerate this a bit, but the advantage is still obvious.)
- Due to the horde starting cave location, they have these additional advantages:
- They reach SFGY faster and can soft cap it before alliance arrive (an advantage, but not a huge one since a soft cap isn’t insurmountable.)
- If alliance go with the IBGY first Strat, horde starting cave is so close and they can res 20 at a time so it’s hard to keep IBGY without the majority of the team taking part in the initial push. This also makes the defense of SHGY at the same time very difficult. Once SHGY is lost, anyone dying at IBGY is lost until IBGY hard caps (which means they are out of the game until that happens.)
- If alliance go with SFGY first, the same mostly applies. Admittedly, regaining SHGY becomes a bit easier because of the distance, but alliance pretty much have to balance both until they push IBGY afterwards. Horde do not have this problem.
- Balinda is easier to take down than Galvangar (is that his name? I always just say Galv). Since she’s a caster, many (if not all?) of her spells can be interrupted.
- Once SHGY is softcapped by the horde, there is an unfortunate chokepoint between SHGY and IWB. Some horde my deny this, but since I play the horde side from time to time and watch them specifically address this as THE choke, it’s really undeniable.
- Once SHGY is taken, it’s pretty much game over. Horde can summon Ice Daddy easier than alliance can summon Treesus (I’ve never seen him. He can get bugged too easily for some strange reason. Anyone that wants to update on me feel free to do so.
- SPGY is a delay point. It’s actually not too difficult to stop the horde from taking it, but who wants to do that for hours on end? HKs lose value and you can’t turn in rep forever. Also, smart horde teams take advantage of the back door that lets them right into the aid station area (I am not saying the area is easy to take, but the access is there and alliance do not have a similar access point to the relief hut down south.)
The rest is academic.
THAT BEING SAID… it is NOT impossible for alliance to win.
Post the premade era, I started going AV as alliance. There were times when I would win once or twice a day out of 10 or so games. There were also times when I wouldn’t win all week. But the possibility still existed. But all of the imbalances and frustration have lead alliance to quit AV unless they want rep for the exalted gear and mount. And if you’re only goal is rep, you’re going to do what you can to get that. Thus, the druid-holding, SH surrendering, SP farming rep grinders that ruin everything. And I don’t think they are wrong; I just don’t like them.
Now, horde who don’t think beyond their own desires will just say ‘lol alli suck at pvp’ or ‘lol u geis jes dunt try so u lose lol’. This shows their lack of understanding of humanity.
World of Warcraft is a game. Games are designed to be fun. Challenges are a form of fun, too. But when one set of players (horde) are not presented with the same set of challenges (alliance) that fun ceases to exist. Having to try significantly harder than the other side in order to accomplish the same goal is not fun. Voicing these complaints with no response or changes by the people who have the power to make these changes is no fun. So it is completely natural and understandable for people to just plain quit.
I am not one of those people. On the off chance that I queue for AV, I play to win; always. If the rest of the team wants to farm, I’ll do what I can to get south and at least kill lieutenants and maybe luckily cap something with a group while the horde aren’t paying attention (if it’s a bad group of horde.) But I’m not going to blame the quitters.
So that’s the AV situation. The game layout is so obviously flawed and it’s just not worth the time and effort to try and win at this part of the game for most people.
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Troll detected. Back in 2006 alliance won more than they lost. In Europe, they win more than they lose. The reason alliance lose so much now is because instant queue make them just go in there for rep farming while horde have no casuals due to 1h queues. Every horde that makes it in an AV wants to win it.
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The map comes with inherent horde advantages that make things an uphill battle for alliance.
The instant ques also don’t help with motivations from either side, and I’m absolutely certain that if the Alliance were more motivated, they would win more. However. There is absolutely NO REASON that they should be at a disadvantage so as such…
The map needs to die.
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The map is tremendously in favor of Horde, but it’s not the only issue.
Alliance have fast queues and generally aren’t as invested in the game as compared to Horde waiting long queues to play.
Those two issues combined result in a 95% win rate for Horde.
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Map started the issues but now alliance just adapts to the new rep grind meta of throwing the game from the start.
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The map is not fair but i think it really is a combination of Horde a) going all out during the match cause they actually wait 2 hours for this and b) horde having the more dedicated pvpers. Alliance players afk often since its instant queues, they already lack the racial advantage too (its literally 70% orc and UDs over there) and then they probably are not as fixated on the pvp aspect because otherwise they too would have gone horde for the better racials.
The amount of keyboard turners on alliance is staggering too. It is what it is
I don’t know what the win rates were in vanilla and I doubt you do either, but EU doesn’t sound any different than alliance on their forums so where are you finding their win stats?
This is the worst possible version of AV we could have been given. Without the additional NPCs and land mines, horde advantages become almost insurmountable. I don’t know why anyone, horde or alliance, would be okay with this map. It’s caused alliance to not queue and horde to sit in long queues.
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Post like this one from the horde clan is the main reason I am so sarcastic when I
I post. Yes dear , your right every where else and back in vanilla it is just like you say. Its all because the alliance can’t play no other reason at all. Enjoy longer queues everyday harder grinds if you ranking, the burn out and never meet your goals. Let me help you with everyday life. Please always remember water is wet and fire is good. 
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It’s partly a map issue, partly a horde issue. The map allows horde to get a near 100% win rate when they use a specific strat. Which currently they are doing.
The is alliance just bad issue is simply wrong as alliance do fine in the other two BG’s.
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The Horde get to SHGY the same time we do… If the map were fair we would getting to IBGY the same time they get to SHGY… Or meet in the middle of FoS… They can kill Bal before we kill Galv…
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No one knows but probably a combination of factors. Blizzard could try some things but they’ve been silent. A strange game, the only way to win is not to play.
That’s because the rez rate if the horde owns IB and SF IS 2:1 in favor of the horde. Even if Alliance kills at twice the rate it’s still a standstill and horde can block alliance and get SF first so they often do.
Having done my initial rank grind (4-9) in AV before switching to WSG (I finished ranking befor AB came out so I played very little), I can confidently say it’s a combination of the map and player skill/gear. It’s not that alliance players are bad, it’s iust not effecient honor/hr, so the rank grinders (better geared/skilled players) typically don’t play it on the alliance side.
My thought process comes from playing at a time when alliance could pre-made AV. Somewhere around 70% of the ally premades were literally CHOOSING whether to win or lose depending on how much defense horde wanted to put up. Horde knew, that if we wiped them 2-3 times on their initial Zerg, they would give up 90% of the time and just let us win.
Yes the map is bad, but alliance are at a weaker position from the start due to their “best” players choosing not to play it. What you are left with are players that are demoralized and want their PVE rewards.
Not a great recipe for success.