Go back to WotLK&MoP Class Design!


(Reesespieces) #1

After 869 Upvotes, the first thread hit post limit. The second thread sputtered out as a result of the forum switch.

As Class design is fundamentally the most important issue in this game, this thread warrants being brought back.

Class design is the vehicle through which we interact with all other content. If Class design is bad, the enjoyableness of all other content is poisoned as a result, even if the rest is good (It’s not).

Think of it this way: It doesn’t matter if you live in a cottage nestled in a scenic Norwegian Fjord, if you’re looking outside through a cracked and grimy window, it’s going to look horrible.

That’s what bad class design is. The only difference is that we’re looking through a cracked and grimy window at a parking lot.

Previous Post:

I had problems with certain elements of MoP Class design, namely the new talent trees. But all of my gripes back then are just completely trivial in light of what’s come since.

Can this company just realize that they dropped the ball in WoD and classes really haven’t been fun since then?

5.4 Class Design should be used as a starting point for abilities/talents going forward.

I’m sick of having niche spells taken away, I’m sick of having baseline utility scrapped and handed back as a talent, I’m tired of my class being reinvented to be completely unrecognizable from what it was when I rolled the character.

Just go back. Don’t try to “improve” this mess, don’t “iterate” on it. You’ve been trying that since 6.0, and it’s still complete garbage.

To expand upon the above:
1.) Removing baseline, niche abilities (Stances, etc.) and handing them back as talents is bad.
2.) Removing baseline utility and handing them back as PvP talents is bad
3.) Discouraging things like AMS soaking and Berserker Stance (Termed by Ion as “degenerate playstyles”) is bad.
4.) Redesigning classes so that they’re mechanically unrecognizable is bad.
5.) Removing gameplay options like 2h Frost is bad and hasn’t improved balance
6.) Slapping everything under the sun onto the GCD slows down gameplay and makes clunky, tedious rotations even more clunky and tedious. It’s bad!
7.) Leaving classes stripped bare so you can force us to grind auxiliary systems (Legendaries, Artifact Power, Azerite Gear) is bad.
8.) Getting rid of ability overlap between specs undermines total class fantasy, makes trying new specs more difficult for new players, and deprives veterans of interesting tools in their arsenal. It’s bad.

Just. Go. Back. Stop it with this. You’ve been trying “pruning” since WoD, where class design was bad. You’ve been trying auxiliary systems that complete classes since Legion, where class design was bad. I don’t want to grind to play my character, I’ll happily grind rep, or attunements, but I don’t want to grind so my class isn’t completely uninteresting (Spoiler alert: Even after grinding, it’s still not fun to play)

tl;dr: Azerite Gear/Artifact Traits and Pruning are a mistake. They haven’t made the game better, they’ve made the game worse. Classes are not more enjoyable, or more balanced now. They’re less enjoyable and balance is a joke (Ask any class left “unfinished” during BfA’s launch!)


What if they implemented all the overwhelmingly popular ideas?
(Illidette) #2

I agree overall, but this bit isn’t entirely accurate. Most classes still played well, had some niche utility and were genuinely fun. Some didn’t but the vast majority did. Obviously pre WoD class design was a lot better, I just don’t think it’s fair to outright say all class design was bad in WoD. Blood DK was good, BM and Survival Hunters were good(MM was blah imo), Shadow Priests were amazing, etc…

That’s nitpicking though. At the core, our classes need to be fun to play. They need to offer some depth. Talents should augment and/or compliment the class, not attempt to make it complete(while still failing). Having utility stripped and added as PvP talents to try and incentivize people to turn Warmode on is dumb and was a huge step back.

I really wish Blizzard would understand this. How they don’t…who knows. Though perhaps they do and just don’t care. If classes are fun, even subpar content is manageable. If classes play like crap, good content becomes lackluster since the way we experience it is unfun.


#3

Im not why you think we need this thread again.


(Argronak) #4

Explain to me how much better Protection Paladins were back then in MOP and Wrath then he is now?

Because I am content with how the Prot Pally plays here in BFA.


(Reesespieces) #5

Because modern class design is garbage and no amount of male human paladin alt posting changes that.


(Argronak) #6

And now I cannot take you and this thread seriously.


(Reesespieces) #7

You responded on the wrong character, big guy.

So, just to speak of the classes I primarily play (Warrior and DK) both were significantly worse off in WoD.

I think most of the PvP community, at this point, is in agreement that the 3s meta was far more enjoyable in MoP than any time since. While that’s not a reflection on the classes you specified, I think it does shed light on the state of class design in general.

Beyond that, I think there’s a reason to draw a distinction at WoD, rather than Legion or BfA, you actually highlighted it. “Pre-WoD class design was a lot better.”

I’d argue that most of the reason classes are bad at the moment (pruning, Azerite/auxiliary systems, etc.) is because of philosophies that started in WoD. If Blizzard is going to have their feet held to the fire, reverting things back to 6.0 shouldn’t be enough, imho.

Like you mentioned though, this is a small detail and we’re both in agreement on the broader points.


(Daenirr) #8

I’m happy that you gave an example of 1 spec of 1 class is enjoyable to 1 person. Most classes were absolutely gutted after WoD. Further pruning, removal of legendaries, and baseline abilities added as talents made this even worse.

Take a look at Shadow Priests, WW monks, DKs, Druids, Shaman etc… It’s not even main damaging abilities either, it’s fun mobility abilities too. I guess it’s more fun to play without Gust of Wind, Displacer Beast and flying. Yippee???


#9

I just want to play MD/Ruin again


(Illidette) #10

I mained a Blood DK for WoD and it was fun. Multistrike was amazing, Dark Sim was amazing. Though I didn’t mess with Frost or Unholy much so can’t comment on those. I had heard Warriors were pretty bad during WoD though.

You are right however. The design philosophy changed drastically in WoD and that trend has continued. And as a result the game has continued to deteriorate. Three expansions of pruning. Two expansions of temporary gimmicks to try and mask the laughable state of most classes.

For you, Protection is one of the classes in a okay spot right now. Biggest difference being Holy Power was used for Shield of the Righteous so with enough Haste you could basically keep it up 100% of the time. You also still had both Divine Protection(20% reduction) and Ardent Defender(20% and the pseudo cheat death), opposed to DP becoming AD. A lot of classes though, tanks included(Bears say hello) are in significantly worse shape than WotLK/MoP, hell even WoD/Legion.


#11

Interesting because MoP was the only expansion that I enjoyed playing multiple alts. I do miss MoP class design.


(Rhielle) #12

I believe we need an entirely new, revamped talent system that’s more engaging and rewarding. As I’ve said before, see Old Republic’s system. It’s similar to ours, but better.

And I swear, if I end up with my stupid eclipse bar again because so many people want Mists class design… I will hurt people.


#13

Yes please. I had to have 5 120s last patch when I played, I couldn’t play one class for more then a few weeks, they were so boring. By the end I was just doing my weekly 10s then logging off.

I miss my combat rogue from Mop, 100-0 ing people on the timeless isle with killing spree because pve gear was so op.

Please go back to a time when all the classes didn’t have the same spells. Now they all have a offense CD they all have a silence, they all have a defensive it’s all the same.


#14

The actual content of this post has almost zero to di with the actual class design of MoP.

  1. is you disliking pruning, not liking how MoP handled things specifically
  2. is the same as 1)
  3. is the same as 1), but also I agree with the degenerate playstyle term. The benefits from taking damage I’d imagine were intended to be a natural boon to using those abilities, not as something you actively ate damage to gain. Same reason they removed Vengeance, really.
  4. This is really the only thing you’ve mentioned that implies you liked MoP’s actual class design better, and it’s the most vague thing you’ve said so far. I also disagree. Rogue and Hunter redesigns were absolutely necessary, the specs were too samey.
  5. See 1)
  6. Outdated as they went back on a large chunk of this, and overstated in the first place for the vast majority of classes. I don’t agree with what they tried to do, but it’s not had a significant impact in any way for the average player, especially post-reverts.
  7. See 1)
  8. Fair enough, but that comes down to 1).

Look, I don’t like the idea of pruning in general, but like 80% of what you’ve said is just “WAAAH PRUNING” which has nothing to do with MoP class design. That just happens to be the last expansion before real pruning started.

Most of the time the people who honestly prefer MoP’s class design a significant amount over more recent iterations are casters who enjoyed overwhelming mobility for a big chunk of it, which makes sense to not be a thing. I feel like DPS Warriors were one of the only specs to be hit particularly hard by the initial prune (I don’t say this as a Warrior main, this was a 2nd alt at the time, and still is).


(Juuhachigou) #15

I gave this a like. I stopped playing Shaman when I came back in Legion pre-patch after stopping at the end of MoP. And my gosh did they ruined that class. It was my main and pretty much one of the only classes I played but yikes was I in for a surprise when I came back.

I still had the most fun with my Shaman in WotL and Cata as a class design. But MoP wasnt bad at all in comparison to what it is now.

I however do enjoy playing my Demon Hunter and some other classes now but thats only because I dont know any better.


(Reesespieces) #16

“80% of what you said amounts to complaining about changes that really came into swing after MoP, you haven’t explained why you want MoP back!”

How simple are you? The point here is that the philosophies guiding class design since MoP ended are horrible. When people say “go back to MoP” they mean “go back to the philosophies that you abandoned going into WoD.” It’s not a hard concept.

I’ve never seriously played a caster in any regard. I’ve always stuck to melee. Every melee class I’ve played became significantly worse when WoD came out.


#17

You know what a much more clear and not misleading way to say that would be?

“Revert Pruning”.

Which coincidentally is an argument we had a LOT back when it started. This current “go back to MoP” trend is just a fancy way to dress it up. It’s like if the “No Flying” crowd had tried to rebrand their argument halfway through during WoD.

And again to be clear, I think disliking pruning is perfectly normal in most cases, even if I do think it’s often exaggerated. I just prefer people to say what they mean.


#18

Remember when shamans had like 20 totems. Back when they had some uniqueness.


(Juuhachigou) #19

Oh yeah that was one of my favorite things. I mained enhancement and when I got back to it I was left with no totems at all aside from a few 5 second ones. All the good and fun ones were divided over ele and resto. Then when I found out spirit wolves didnt heal anymore I was done with it.


#20

Whoever thought up the arcane changes should not be allowed to come up with class changes anymore. Seriously.

That was my favorite mage spec in Legion. All it needed was a better mastery. That’s it. What absolute moron thought “Hey, I have an idea, let’s remove all of the nuance and mana management that makes Arcane actually a fun spec to play!”

WHAT?!

They pretty much just made it exactly what people who never played it always thought it was: A one button spec with no thought or nuance required.