Good point, well-stated. The timer adds a sense of urgency - although I argue when it’s agreed upon that timing the key is a focus - pun not intended, but keeping it! Obviously anecdotal, but I’ve been in plenty of keys where the decision upfront was to complete.
if a dungeon takes more time than i want it to, it’s a slog.
if a dungeon takes less time than i want it to, it’s a speedrun.
blizzard, just make every dungeon take the amount of time i think it should (which is objectively the right amount of time). it’s not that hard.
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Reminded me of this…
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Good question. Why would you? Better questions:
- What does that have to do with wanting a progression path through dungeons for non-raiders that’s superior to the stuff you get from your covenant campaign quests?
- How soon are they going to have to squish levels again when every tier this expansion is expected to jump over 49 item levels?
I seriously feel like you guys are missing the point arguing over semantics and fighting for your right to keep non-raiders “in their place.”
Well that exists : Mythic+.
The issue with the m+ hard timer aspect for me is that it means there can be no interruptions or you’ve potentially wasted everyone’s time and ruined someone’s key.
Kid wakes up unexpectedly? Work call comes in? You have to use the bathroom? There’s already no pause button in an mmo, but this forces it to extremes. You can’t say “I’ll be right back in 3 minutes” in a m+. You have to keep constant focus on the timer for the entire length of the dungeon. It locks out a large number of people who just can’t promise that type of totally uninterrupted laser focus. Even in a raiding environment you can say “I’ll be right back, bathroom” or “checking on the kid, be back in 2-3 min” between bosses without causing the entire run to be a wash for the rest of the group.
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Simple. I didn’t do M0. In fact, I was unsubbed through most of last expansion. My kid was in her final years of high school, and I wanted to spend my time being a dad. I got back into the game just as she was nearing graduation, and I didn’t engage in any content that would require me to miss out on dad stuff. There’s more to life than this game.
Ok? The same thing happened in Legion though.
So your whole “we’ll see” post is kind of weird, considering its been the normal practice for the last 4 years.
Competency is just part of the picture. Perfectly competent groups can be a bit more relaxed, not stressing about flawlessness every step of the way and take a few minutes longer. I guess it depends on how one sees as dungeon… if it’s that they’re practiced into the ground until it becomes muscle memory I guess I see what you’re saying but I really hate thinking of dungeons that way.
I don’t think anybody who’s posted about being unhappy with M+ has a problem with dungeons taking a long time. Generally it’s quite the opposite.
Literally everyone of them has moved the goal posts every time.
First it’s a fear of nerfs to content–when pointed out that the nerfs that happened historically were following an exodus of players.
Then it’s questioning why you need the gear–Then it’s pointed out that they don’t need the exact gear but they need a reasonable means to work toward that gear and not be above X lvl or wait.
Then it’s a sense of working hard and achievement–When it’s pointed out to them that it doesn’t make sense why your sense would be affected by someone else’s progression.
Quite honestly these arguments are getting tiring. Literally there’s a scarcity of loot right now, we all know that. But the bigger issue here is while there’s a giant scarcity of loot there’s no reasonable way for solo pug players to follow a path of progression that doesn’t lie outside of content that’s designed specifically pre-made groups. Literally it’s hit 171 in gear following heroics and fall off a cliff because it’s either you find someone to play with, and dedicate more time to the game, or you’re out.
Seriously who thinks that the following meets the definition of casual?
-Raids heroic 2x a week
-Keys above 10+ right now
-Is in multiple guilds for different characters
-Has multiple characters above 195 ilvl
This is like the time Mitt Romney when asked who’s his favorite racecar driver in Nascar said he doesn’t know but he does have a few favorite owners. Like bruh. The majority of players aren’t anywhere near what you’re talking about. Most players probably never step foot inside a heroic raid before, let alone have pugged a normal one.
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Please dude, competent groups don’t just wait around looking at the scenery. Competency assumes a certain kill time for groups and an ability to navigate the dungeon in a certain manner.
That’s what dungeons have always been beyond that first “whoa new place” run.
Yeah, that’s definitely a valid point, though I’m not insinuating you need me to validate that for you.
I think the way I’ve looked at M+ and other content is that, for M+, the entire dungeon is the encounter.
It’s the wow version of going on a 5 mile run versus some lifting that allows for multiple minutes downtime between sets/exercises. It’s a different way to consume content.
Nevertheless, as Chroesire eloquently points out:
I would hope you never feel like you’re inconveniencing folks by putting together your own key and stating that you’re looking for a relaxed, completion-only run. If you have an alliance toon and want to run some keys for fun, zero-stress (I’m getting back into this too), you can always add me and I’ll be happy to tank a couple for ya (if that’s not your role):
#Fairlight1833
That’s how the game is though. So many avenues of gearing and working on gear.
Which removing Mythic+ wouldn’t fix.
I just realized that you’re moving the parameters around again. Here’s the bottom line: there’s a 49-point discrepancy between the highest level of untimed dungeons (M0) and the highest level of raiding (Mythic). That’s absolutely insane.
You can look the numbers up yourself if you want. I’m tired of doing it for you.
Why do you keep disregarding Normal and Heroic?
Are you planning to jump into mythic on an alt that is only 184?
And if this your argument, why is mythic raiding even being used for your current argument.
I’m not, you guys keep changing what this is even about each time we rebute one of your poorly thought out arguments.
What does that matter ?
One is not a means to progress into the other.
M0s → Normal raid. That’s the path. And it offers a somewhat decent upgrade as to feel rewarding when walking it.
In other words, on weekend nights you block out two solid hours with no pause button and no in-home distractions to play a video game. There’s nothing wrong with that. I do the same, but it’s not normal behavior. It’s not casual.
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I’m not advocating for removing M+.
I’m talking about rethinking it. Allow for players to have a built in feature for opting out of the timer to receive less loot. Doesn’t hurt you, but I’m sure you’ll hate it.
Having a LFD system for players with M+. Allows for more players easier access to content and to meet new players without having to go through a screening process by some player who judges what’s good and what’s not. Again doesn’t bother your runs, but I’m sure you’ll hate it.
Having the ability to lock your key at a certain key level so you can farm it to practice, and get gear appropriate to the next level. Again doesn’t harm your run, but I’m sure you’ll hate it.
All of these steps have no impact on anything more serious players do. All it would function as is using the ingame systems as a means to let more players try in not-as-toxic environment to gear up. But after reading your posts I kinda get the feeling it’s not so much about defending the systems as it is about your ego toward others.
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Sounds cool to me. Basically checking a box for M+ Completion? Progression?
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I think a Torghast style of M+ would be neat, but that’s not a marketable e-sport. It’d make a neat option though.
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