My experience with BRD, the best dungeon ever made in this game, is that most Casuals hate dungeons.
Exactly. Those need to be the norm not the exception. But at the same time remove m+. It just causes loot bloat and burnout.
I think the answer depends on what you mean by ârelevance.â
If you mean that itâs harder to find other people to do it because theyâre off chasing gear elsewhere, then thatâs a real problem.
If itâs that other WoW activities offer higher gear in and of itself, then thatâs a problem largely in your own mind. If you enjoy that activity do it, if you donât, then donât.
Mythic+ introduces no loot bloat at all.
It absolutely is. Iâm a heroic raider, and Iâm heroic because Iâm casual. I donât have to show up to raid this week if Iâm busy or tired or not feelinâ it, and nobody in my guild is gonna be mad.
Heroic raiding means we can do our thing whether 20 of us show up or only 10.
Heroic raiding means a casual atmosphere where guildies who arenât quite pulling their weight can stay in the raid and enjoy the content because we are happy to carry them and the difficulty allows us to do that.
Heroic raiding means that if our shaman is 30 minutes late because he had to deal with a colicky baby (it happens), thatâs fine, and we summon him in.
Nobody has to be try-hard. Nobody has to enforce meta specs and stay on top of the spreadsheet.
But itâs a challenge. Itâs not non-content.
Casual.
That doesnât mean that there are people who canât even devote that much to the gameâŠand thatâs fine. But I find it HYSTERICAL that Iâm being called a non-casual in this thread. Itâs mind-blowing.
Why would I ever give a flying fadoodle about casuals??? That riff raff doesnât concern me in the slightest. And even if it did, you can see the beauty of a dungeon like Dire Maul with its various wings and modular design that lets you do it in parts.
Nuts to casuals.
It does. Itâs not alone in that regard though, 4 raid difficulties is equally stupid. We just need 2 and maybe remove lfr.
Itâs easy to find the perfect mix between chilling and over doing it. Over the Both Legion and BFA, my DK had completed 512 keys. It shows this in the Statistics tab in achievements as âChallenge mode dungeons completedâ
I now know that many is way over doing it, I only do like 2 or 3 keys a week now.
4 is the sweet spot. Sorry you want to repeat the cycle of Cata raiding â MoP Raiding â 5.4 Raiding again to learn all over the lessons we learned that 4 raiding difficulties is the sweet spot that satisfies most people.
Maybe you just werenât there for that period and just donât know the history of it. In which case, Iâd ask you to simply get informed.
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Well with BRD specifically, the dungeon could be carved up into pieces. You could do a full run, half run, just one boss, or do two bosses then finish the dungeon with someone else after your buddies have to leave, etc. Lots of options there that arenât really practical with M+.
Also with traditional dungeons you arenât screwed if Joe the healer needs to run and catch a pizza delivery or deal with a puking kid or whatever. He can take care of whatever needs to be taken care of while everybody else takes a bio break, after which you continue on and finish the run.
No. We got more options because casual players said raids were too hard, and they didnât want to dedicate the time it takes to do them. This was borne out by the fact that a very small percentage of players were setting foot in raids. So when faced with the prospect of having to cut out raids completely and exclusively release dungeons, they chose instead to release a watered down version of the raid to justify the removal of the most popular form of end game prior to Cataclysm. Was the benefit worth the cost? Absolutely not. In my personal opinion, it would be fantastic if they just got rid of raids completely and focused exclusively on making dungeons.
Note that Iâm well aware that this will never happen, and Iâm not asking for this to happen. Iâm just saying that LFR was never created for casuals. It was created to justify the costs of creating hardcore raid content. The âNormalâ raid tier was also created for the same reasons. With the mass exodus caused by the removal of dungeon content as the primary form of end game, even raid guilds were having trouble maintaining enough players to run raids. The flexible Normal raids allowed those guilds to keep going even when they were many players short of a 25 man raid on any given week. None of this stuff was done to make casuals happy. It was done purely for the benefit of raiders.
You do know the âNormalâ raid tier we have now was what was originally called âFlexâ in SoO, right? It is what gave us the flexible raid sizes we have in Normal and Heroic now.
I donât remember my casual guild ever using Flex in SoO as a progression path, we still went straight into normal.
Come to think of it, the only thing I used flex for, was to make pug Garrosh groups to farm for the heirloom weapons.
No, we got more options because people had been enjoying the beer league feel of TBC Karazhan that morphed into 10N mode in WotLK and that was taken away in Cataclysm with the merge of 10N with 25N in terms of difficulty and loot.
Youâre trying to open up a problem we solved ages ago. There is no issue now. You have the beer league and it offers a nice step up from Mythic 0s, as it should.
Itâs not. Itâs insipid. You canât have loot drops from 4 not feel meaningful without 3 separate and sifnificant gear gaps. We were fine with a normal and a hard mode. This is not fâing Diablo with 20 different levels of stratification.
Been playing since the vanilla stress test beta. Take your pedantic lecturing elsewhere.
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LFR is for people who just want to see the raid
Normal is for people who want to give ârealâ raiding a try but donât have the schedule to dedicate to an actual raid group
Heroic is the new Normal
Mythic is for the hardcore raiders
Theyâre very simple concepts, itâs sad anyone canât see them
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Which is why I said âmaybeâ Iâm sure that one could be worked out for the tourists.
Itâs sad you canât see the inherent problems with this system nor the monotonous repetition of it all purely to drag raid tiers out unnecessarily.
You didnât point out what I asked you to, but I stand corrected regarding the Mythic loot. Itâs 233: https://www.wowhead.com/guides/castle-nathria-raid-boss-loot-gear-legendary-powers-conduits
Regardless, M0 dungeon loot at 184 compared with 233 Mythic raid loot is greater than the 16 item levels that you claimed. 49 is about three times as much as the 16 items levels that you claimed.
I just do up to Mythic 0 and wait for next tier. Iâve never liked Mythic+ but a lot of people enjoy it. So have at it.
This still is a valid progression method. The progression is mythic 0s > normal raid > heroic raid > Mythic raid. In the past before mythics it was heroics > normal raid > heroic raid. That progressions hasnât changed. Mythic + is an alternate progression path to raiding.
I hate this idea that dungeons are supposed to be hardcore content now. Why do hardcore players get to have the benefits of every single freaking thing in this game. They even made pve gear good in pvp lol so now Mythic+ players get to kick my head in for that as well.
So glad I am paying a monthly sub so some twit who spits in my face gets to have fun.