…
I had a response I’d started to post. But honestly, these “debates” are so freaking cyclical, so freaking pointless, that I just give up.
Y’all win, I’m done.
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It wasn’t a gotcha moment. I’m legit curious. I’m not trying to win anything here.
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A long while I tried to speak with some Horde players about how could the Alliance get a resolution without affecting the Horde rebuild after BFA.
Boy oh boy… even NPCs mentioning and acknowledging the events of BFA was a no go.
I am not even talking about Alliance taking something away from Horde players. Merely NPCs just saying “Yeah that totally happened and we don’t trust that Orc baker anymore” which would have made for some cool continuation and world building.
Jesus christ did those discussions get heated. So much name calling and reported posts. 
It seems literally any sort of resolution is a none starter and cinematics? Nope can’t get that either.
I think the statement was “The Horde doesn’t owe alliance anything” canonically.
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I don’t think you need to do a whole expansion where the horde are the bad guys (even though they are still invading ashenvale after BfA). Night elves getting some kind of resolution to a terrible story doesn’t mean destroying the horde or even making them feel the same way night elf players felt in BfA. You can’t just ignore this happened and sweep it under the rug either, but there needs to be some conclusion for the night elves, it doesn’t even really need to involve horde players.
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I think it’s more of a worry by horde players that they are going to get treated the same way night elves got treated in BfA. No one wants to feel like that in a videogame, it’s suppose to be fun. You don’t have to destroy the horde or commit genocide against them, but the night elves should be able to take back their territory on screen, maybe a quest through ashenvale where they take back and heal the forest or something. The night elves getting some in game content where they take back their territory and start to heal their wounds isn’t something unreasonable. Night elves need something that isn’t just Tyrande being pointless or “elune dumb lmao”.
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Speaking for myself, I’d take that over what we got. The issue is that we want to stop being treated the way that the story repeatedly treats us, destroying the faction many of us signed up for for no good reasons.
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It’s totally irrelevant which players play through it. If it happens, the events are canon forever* going forward. The worgen intro story is Alliance only, does that mean that Gilneas wasn’t abandoned and Liam killed? The effects remain forever*. And I cannot and will not trust the current people in charge not to create ####, since they’ve made it clear that’s the height of their ability. And how, precisely, do you intend for people to ‘not see it’? Just not playing through it means nothing, you can look it up on youtube, or just heard about it on these forums. Once you know about it at all, you know about it.
The feelings of Horde players do not trump the feelings of Alliance players. Nor do the feelings of Alliance players trump the feelings of Horde players.
*not as valuable a guarantee as it once was, true
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My proposal was that the Horde loyalists that got arrested by the Horde at the end of BFA become a new NPC faction like the burning blade where Night Elves can beat them in Ashenvale to reclaim their land and Horde players can beat them (along with new Alliance invaders in their land) with new characters (new models) to renew the image of the Horde. The problem with the Horde was they didn’t stand up to evil? Well let them stand up this time.
Its the only thing possible without everyone getting collective amnesia.
Did you as a horde player loose gilneas? And get no resolution going on 10+ yrs now? Did you as a horde player, years later loose teldrassil as a second home and get no resolution for it?
You literally loose NOTHING as a horde player if blizz has the worgen reclaim gilneas, or blizz gives the night elves a satisfactory conclusion to Teldrassil.
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I’m not a Horde Player. I play both, and have ‘lost Gilneas’ as much as any Alliance player did. I never did play the WoT on either side, because it was too offensive to me.
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Point is, horde players arent loosing anything by giving the worgen a epic quest to reclaim gilneas and their feelings shouldn’t even factor in to it. 
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Did you not see this post from just hours ago today? It was a direct reply to you
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I hope they will not give us yet another tree inside the new Night Elf home (implying they’ll get one). I’m entirely grateful for what they did and all their help so far, but enough is enough. It’s time for the Gilneans to remember that they do have their own kingdom to reclaim.
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I was a work, so I probably didn’t read it.
well, yea, work is not the best place to get into internet arguments.
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I’m just fighting for more worgen content. No hard feelings I hope
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Hell with it all. Time to burn some bridges.
Let me start off with I love you both. Regardless, I’m about to go full unleashed for a minute. Probably done with the forums for a while after this.
Because what you all, what pretty much everyone on Team Blue just cannot see, will not see, outright denies seeing, is what state the Horde has descended to since Wrath. So maybe giving you some data will help, though inevitably this will all be forgotten again in the future.
Let’s start with faction leaders. Because when you want to feel a little bit of pride, it has traditionally come in the form of leaders.
These are the racial leaders starting with their introduction and their ultimate fates. I’ll be ignoring Allied races because they’re both too new and admittedly I don’t know their leadership as well:
Thrall: Retired, stayed retired or neutral for ten years, back now. Replaced by Garrosh, then Saurfang, then…?
Sylvanas: Enemy of everyone, now effectively retired. No longer with the Horde.
Vol’jin: Dead. Eventually replaced by Rokhan.
Cairne: Dead. Replaced by Baine.
Kael’thas: Introduced as a villain, dead. Replaced with Lor’themar (though for later calculations, we’ll actually include him as the original leader).
Gallywix: Introduced as an antagonist. Currently fled.
Ji: Present, a first for the Horde, a leader who still manages to lead.
Alliance?
Bolvar: Neutral. Replaced by Varian as soon as he showed up to claim his throne once more.
Tyrande: Present.
Mechatorque: Present.
Magni: Neutral.
Velen: Present.
Genn: Present.
Pandalady: Present.
For every remaining original Alliance racial leader, we have a Horde leader who is dead or left as an enemy. Their replacements largely haven’t faired any better, when they eventually were replaced.
But fine, those are just NPCs. What’s the actual experience like playing Horde since Cataclysm?
Cataclysm: Bullies to the Alliance, but largely our best showing. A former Horde member actually did something, and it was relevant.
MoP: We’re the bad guys. It literally starts off with us developing and immediately using WMDs. The whole image the Horde was sold on, being honorable warriors, is initially ruined in this expansion. We end it with the first ever raid set in a faction capital, where we’re told we would not have succeeded without the Alliance. We also get the single least active warchief because as soon as Vol’jin does anything beyond grats’ing us on our level 3 Garrison, he dies.
WoD: What little remained of the Honorable Horde dies here. Orcs didn’t need demon blood at all! They are just innately evil, guys!! Trying to genocide the drainie was just Saturday afternoon fun times.
Legion: Warchief Shuffle #2 happens, and then we disappear. While Alliance-aligned characters take us along to fight the Legion, the most we get is Liandrin talking to the Nightborne and convincing us to prank the night elves.
BfA: Time to kill even the memory of the Honor Horde. WMDs were bad? Let’s attempt a genocide, and let’s start things off with that. Also our latest warchief told us we’re nothing and flew away. Also also, our leaders keep telling us what shipheels we are because we’re Horde. Also also also, we only managed to succeed in our second rebellion because the replacement for the replacement for the orc leader died for our sins, making the entire point of getting a whole rebellion together pointless. But also also also also we only managed to do it because the Alliance walked us to the Orgrimmar gates. And also also also also also, Baine. Just Baine.
SL: Baine sat on some steps for a while, Thrall met his mom.
When we’re not the outright villains, we either do not even fluxing exist in the narrative, or we learn in new and fun ways another god damn reason why we’re just the freaking worst.
And the novels? No freaking different. Like, okay, the past four years of being the worst people on Azeroth had to be for something, right? Some small measure of sense?
No. Screw your reason, screw your logic. We had to double down on being the baddies because SHIFT JUST AIN’T FAIR!!!
But okay. Okay, Alynsa. That’s all well and good. But why does that matter for the Alliance narrative if you don’t have to play it, right?
Because I didn’t freaking play the Sylvanas novel, but it’s still the canon I have to live with. I didn’t quest through Brandondamn or whatever it’s called, but it’s still informing my god damn faction. I didn’t play through the Worgen intro quests, but that’s still my faction and we’ve never been burdened with the fallout from that.
But you’re right. Why should I care if the Alliance players get to have their own resolutions, even if it makes my faction into the villains, not again but still? Where’s the harm in it, right? If my character doesn’t play through it, it’s completely irrelevant, right?
I mean, nobody ever mentioned the Sludge Fields or South Shore or any Horde-exclusive content as things relevant to Alliance players, right??? Nobody keeps hammering home how important Horde quests are to the Alliance narrative ever, right??? It’s not like any development for the Horde that isn’t “warmongering killing machines” is put on the back burner or anything. It’s not like Alliance characters or Alliance-adjacent characters have been highly prominent for over a decade now, with Horde characters being stuck in the back seat until the murdering needs to start or they need to die.
But you’re right.
All y’all are right.
What’s the harm in more content designed to portray the Horde as nothing more than mindless antagonists?
At least the Alliance players will get to feel good for a minute. At least two of your races will get some resolution, while all of ours are stuck with the piss-poor development we’ve been getting since the train started rolling in Cataclysm twelve years ago.
Who is really harmed by keeping my entire faction locked in this perpetual cycle, right?
See you all when I see you, I’m just done.
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If it means anything Alysna…I’m sorry. Maybe I should just stop posting here. It’s just not worth fighting for more worgen content I guess. You don’t need to leave, I will
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No but can your average Horde citizen sleep safely at night knowing Sylvanas is still alive?
What about an Alliance citizen or even a Night elf?
Her continued existence is a result of the collaborative actions of traitors on both Horde and Alliance.
Why would they continue to put up with this nonsense? I can’t say I’d remain loyal to a faction who lets megalomaniacs live. Let alone bring any sense of justice back to the world that was left in ruins.
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You’re missing the point completely. None of my posts were intended to fix anything with Alliance identity - because BFA did nothing to fix anything with Horde identity.
It wasn’t intended to be serious.
It was intended to point out that you don’t want the attention that BFA gave the Horde.
You trying to take that scenario and make it into something that “makes sense” for Alliance defeats the purpose of it. There was nothing good about it for the Horde. It made no sense for the Horde. We gained nothing and lost on every aspect.
Would you prefer losing Darkshore off screen?
We don’t get to control anything. We’re simply saying “Don’t kick us in the teeth after already kicking us in the teeth repeatedly.” Why should the Horde get to be put through the ringer AGAIN in another garbage expansion just to salve your own wounds at the Horde’s expense?
That’s fine by me - create a story where the Night Elves build a new city. Couldn’t care less. Go for it! It’s the whole “Kick the Horde in the teeth” part no one wants.
See? Doesn’t take long before you switch to “Well, we need a win on screen too.”
Don’t leave me here with these crazy people!!!
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