I am not… read back… this whole conversation has been about Goblins and Worgen and their treatment. The Horde did come out on top in terms of content. There is no denying that.
That is categorically and demonstrably untrue and you agree below:
So we are both in agreement.
Why do you limit this to numerical? You have already accepted that Alliance did get less content than the Horde in Cataclysm.
Yes I mean the massive Horde Iron Fortress that appears a short walk away.
Tauren hub lost. Orc hub gained. See how that works?
It seems the problem between you and I is that you define equal by Blizzard penalizing the other side. This probably explains why you are so resistent in accepting Alliance players getting some content for themselves because you believe the only way that is possible it is at your expense.
I don’t know why you think this way but I don’t think you need to be given bad content for me to have something good but if thats your philosophy then I don’t think any argument I present will sway you.
I also want to comment on the question of zone balance again. I think that it’s fallacious to equate the number of zones controlled to the amount of content a faction has as well as its nature. Zone boundaries are ultimately arbitrary, something that Blizzard themselves demonstrated in Cataclysm when they combined Alterac and Hillsbrad and split the Barrens into North and South.
So for instance, the Human starting area technically has more zones than any other starting area with 4, but Westfall and Redridge both had about 5 levels of content each when most zones tried to have something approaching ten. Elwynn and Westfall theoretically could have been combined into one zone and then poof, Human starting area only has 3 zones but the same amount of content.
Dun Morogh was only partially touched up in Cataclysm as well and Loch Modan was almost entirely untouched, so in terms of new content Dwarves and Gnomes only had about one and a half zones of updated content and another one and a half of thin, weak content even though hey, that’s a whole zone.
Silverpine alone’s first dozen quests have more content in them than Loch Modan, Arathi, and Elwynn Forest combined.
So I’m not entirely on board with the “zone balance” argument, because zone balance doesn’t mean content balance, and if numerical zone balance is so important Blizzard could have simply redrawn borders, which they had already done to an extent.
Sure, most Horde players didn’t like the villain bat and would have preferred that it didn’t happen. However, what some folks minimize or down play is the flip side of that - the sheer sense of stunning incompetence/helplessness that was inflicted on Alliance players. We got to spend a zone and a half chasing a damn balloon bomb only to fail and watch it destroy a druid school. We got to step over the corpses of dead Alliance quest givers in Silverwind and not do a damn thing about it.
And that incompetence/helplessness has continued beyond Cata, from being given a quest to save people from Teldrassil that was designed to have us fail, to being sent to the Siege of Lordaeron so that we can marvel at the incompetence of Alliance High Command failing to yet again plan for the Forsaken to use their signature weapon.
I recall some people back then arguing that one of the reasons for the abandoning of Gilneas is because Blizzard didn’t want more capital cities.
And yet they could have kept Gilneas and make Gilneas City function like Bilgewater Harbor or Theramore Isle. A true capital story-wise, but a ‘mini’ one in game, in order to balance things. Blizzard thought it’s a better idea to put the zone to waste though.
You mean like the thing I quoted right after that you ignored where you said that the Horde came out ahead of the Alliance, not just the goblins and worgen which is what you moved to when you got called on this.
Well, assuming you agree that the horde receiving more leveling content in one expansion has equalized the horde to have a similar amount of content to that which the Alliance always had.,
But you got a dwarf hub right across from the orc hub, there you go, that balances out Southshore!
Did I?
The Alliance received less new leveling content, but outside of that, they did not end up with less leveling content in the game than the horde did.
It could definitely be done better, but that’s more a problem with Blizz time management back then.
I wouldn’t say that, I’d say you want to focus on limited scenarios that prove your point. Yes, goblins got a 10-20 zone and worgen didn’t. But you don’t want to acknowledge that prior to this the Horde had one less 10-20 zone than the Alliance.
True, but they are both needed, and separate issues.
And agreed, they could have done better with the Alliance stuff. But they also needed to add more variety to horde questing. Two different problems that both should have been dealt with
I still think that it says a lot that there’s so much territorial revanchism directed at the Horde from the Alliance while there’s almost none directed at the Alliance from the Horde. It’s easy to dismiss that as “Alliance players are just greedy” or something but when it comes down to it both playerbases are made up of the same kinds of people behind the keyboard.
One faction coveting what the other faction has while the other is completely indifferent to territorial changes so long as they don’t lose anything demonstrates a fundamental inequality that everyone is aware of to some degree.
You keep talking about amount when I have told you I am fine with it.
For the cataclysm zones I don’t care you got Azshara. I am disappointed Blizzard spent so much money making it the best it can possibly be and I got 3 tents and 4 dudes in the middle of nowhere.
This is such a disengenious accusation.
I never said the rebalancing is unfair, I never said prior to cataclysm Horde hadn’t less zones. You are putting that argument in my mouth, if you think I did then scroll up and quote it.
I said in cataclysm Horde got more stuff.
Mawthorne was arguing Goblins did not get stuff and I said the line “no matter how you do this equation the Horde got more” and you took this quote and ran with it like I was making making a grand statement for everything and everywhere.
The context of the statement makes my statement clear.
Alliance got shafted in Catalysm.
That is a fact. I Agree with this. You agree with this.
As far as I am converned we were in total agreement since the beginning but you had to drag this out over a dozen replies.
Anyway I am tired of this. I need a break from this forum.
The Alliance wasn’t incompetent enough to lose the Fourth War.
The Horde LITERALLY hasn’t defeated the Alliance in fair combat in DECADES.
The Horde has to cheatevery single time.
Fort Triumph? (ok, might be more general alliance than dwarves) Which is an exact equivalent of Desolation Hold right across the rift thing from it that were both added in Cata.
Look, I’ll admit, I may have a chip on my shoulder here as I’ve seen too much nonsense from some Alliance posters about cata and how horrible it was. And your posts I reacted to came in the middle of me reacting to other people acting like Bilgewater wasn’t just a 10-20 zone hub but somehow something like a Theramore style city.
Well, we do have all these mary sue and gary stu characters that won’t just get killed in a split second when the perfectly balanced and understated alliance characters look at them funny.
No. Being true is what makes something true. You can keep repeating “ALLIANCE PLAYERS IGNORE ALLIANCE WON WAR” as much as you want, and it still won’t be true, nor will it be what Myalison was even talking about.
