What in the world are you talking about?
They could have given Worgen their own zones with Gilneas stuff, add characters, fun quests and whatever else. They gave a race to the alliance but outside of the termporary starting zone they made no other effort to integrate them in Alliance story telling or content.
If you want to make up some logical reason why the Alliance players deserve less then I am not going to participate in that discussion with you.
Wrong. Azshara was added to help equalize the imbalance in second zones, as while the Alliance only doubled up with Dwarves and Gnomes, the Horde had 3 races funneled into one zone after their starters, so Alliance had Darkshore, Loch Modan, and Westfall, Horde just had Silverpine and the Barrens. So Azshara was turned from barely utilized late 1-60 zone into a third starter zone for the horde.
Its not about the number of zones Tarrok. Yes there was a zone re-destribution and thats fine, what is unfair is that Blizzard put the time and energy to terraform the entire zone into a horde symbol, make the entire zone goblin themed with a giant town right in the middle of it.
What did the Worgens get? couple of NPCs in Darkshire and one house in the blasted lands.
Are you arguing this is fair?
I know you like to put on your victimhood hat when we talk about the lore, but that isnt what I said at all.
Here is what I said:
So yes. As a Worgen main, I agree. They didnt get enough attention.
Do not confuse that with agreeing that the appropriate amount of attention is decided by the amount of game assets, and flight paths associated with the goblins.
Worgen and Goblins are not at all comparable. Goblins have been a silent partner in horde success since Vanilla. In wrath, Worgen were accidentally tameable beasts, and a forsaken enemy in Silverpine. The Gilneans were a kingdom that Abandoned the Alliance, and they got to merge with the awesome werewolves.
Do I want more for the Gilneans? Yes. Will I be happy if it is perfectly balanced with the Goblins? No. Thats friggin stupid. I want good development. Not lots of development or nkt enough development.
Stop comparing everything through the lense of faction bias.
I’m arguing that it’s BS to try and claim that it’s giving the horde more content than the Alliance when it was part of the work to equalize the amount of content both sides had. Yeah, it’s unfortunate that the Worgen didn’t get something of their own, but that does not turn this into extra horde content when it is completely about bringing the horde closer to equal to the amount of content the Alliance already had.
You know whats BS?
Blizzard could have given the zone to the Horde but they didn’t NEED to terraform it into a Horde symbol. They didn’t NEED to make a goblin pleasure palace. They didn’t NEED to make multiple goblin hubs. They didn’t NEED to make a goblin highway in Azshara. They didn’t NEED to make Bilgewater.
They could have treated the Horde the same way they treated Alliance.
Make it a Horde zone and add couple of tents and a dozen NPCs that tell you to go gather some elemental stones and some deer antlers from the forest. And heck maybe you get a tornado too in the middle of your zone thats just there to show that Cataclysm is here and this isn’t the vanilla zone from half a decade ago.
But they didn’t, Blizzard went ALL OUT when it came to developing Horde zones.
Just because Blizzard rushed Vanilla and you had less leveling zones doesn’t mean Alliance deserved to get the rush content they got in cataclysm.
Even Blizzard who says they don’t do anything wrong ever is on the record saying they did Alliance a diservice with Cataclysm.
Honestly, I will never get this. The fact that the two factions have to share EVERYTHING in order to be ‘‘fair’’, is so damn annoying and immersion breaking.
I know, it’s an mmo with two rival factions and gameplay > lore. But it’s the reason why my favorite race is homeless although their freaking kingdom is sitting right there empty, serving no purpose at all, for almost 12 years now. And I hate it so much.
His point, I think is that both worgen and goblins were made playable in cata, but the goblins got FAR more content than the worgen. No matter how you try to justify it, it’s unfair to the worgen community that to this day, we still remain ignored because it’s inconvenient for blizz to write anything for us outside of small appearances here and there 
Lol.
They revamped almost the entirety of Vanilla Wow and you are complaining that they made Orgrimmar’s port too metal?
You need help, my dude.
The quality of the revamps varied tremendously in terms of quality and scale when you compare Alliance to Horde content. If you can’t see that then you need help my dude.
It’s less about sharing and more about making sure that all the players have an equivalent play experience.
Up until cata, Horde had an objectively inferior experience in the 1-60 areas. Less zones and significantly less quests to do (at least with the Maraudon update in vanilla they got rid of the gap in the 40s where horde players had to farm mobs to level up as there were no quests or dungeons that would give xp there)
There doesn’t need to be exact parity in all things, but there does need to be parity in experience. Once you’re past the safe starter zones there’s more freedom to mix things up, but it does suck to have less variety available at the lowest levels.
Nah, he was talking about Cata since the next sentence was minimizing Alliance in cata to worgen getting a tree and Stormwind getting a destroyed park.
Plus, we’ve been going back and forth since last night with him trying to explain how much more stuff the Horde gets than the Alliance.
I don’t have a problem with advocating for the Worgen to get more stuff, I just have a problem when it’s being brought up to lie about how the horde gets more content than the Alliance does, especially when it comes to what was added in Cata.
It is objectively true Goblins got more stuff than Worgen did in cataclysm.
Despite both being a new playable race.
You tried to justify this with a zone rebalancing but you have zero argument when it comes to why Azshara got such an incredible revamp compared to what the Worgen got which is literally a tree in Darnasus, couple NPCs in darkshire and a house in the blastedlands.
Those are the facts.
What is also fact is that much of Alliance territory was not changed much in cataclysm, just a few superficial additions and meme quests. The places that did get substantial revamp was always for the worst.
Darkshore, Ashenvale, Loch Modan destruction and ruin as far as we can see.
Horde though? Silverpine, Azshara and even when a zone like Barrens was ripped in two the Horde still got substantial build up to compensate for new hubs.
I am not mad that Horde players got that content.
Good for them. What I don’t understand is that we pretend that doesn’t exist… thats a lie.
Stop changing the topic.
You claimed that:
And the horde didn’t. The horde finally came out equal.
Fine, yes, the goblins got more than the worgen. But again, that doesn’t mean the horde got more than the Alliance.
Yes. In Cata the Alliance got the short end of the Blizz not being able to finish everything they intended to do. Except this time, it didn’t end up with the Alliance having to deal with a numerically inferior questing experience for 6 years.
You mean the zone where we lost a Tauren hub and then had half of the zone turned contested with the Alliance gaining footholds in it?
You just keep pretending that this is somehow the Horde getting more when it was the horde finally getting equal.
I think that there are a few things here that can be simultaneously true:
a) Alliance content got done first and better going into Vanilla. Was this because the Alliance need more work because it had been wrecked in WC3 or because the devs expected more people to play Alliance? Who knows, but that’s what happened;
b) As a consequence of a), the Horde levelling experience in Vanilla - WotLK was sucky. You were funneled into too few zones with too few quests and you had to just grind out certain level brackets by killing bunnies or some such;
c) So when Cataclysm came along, it was logical to redistribute the zones so as to improve the Horde leveling experience;
d) However, in so doing, the devs did a reverse-Vanilla, they fairly clearly worked on the Horde content first and better (Looking at you, Silverpine) and half-assed or didn’t finish Alliance content. And what they finished was full of memes and stupid pop culture references (Looking at you, Westfall). Worse, instead of having the Horde acquire the new zones as a consequence of the Cataclysm, they leaned to having the Horde acquire them through military victories against the Alliance. All of which alienated many Alliance players and caused them to not trust the devs.
No arguments here.
I just have a problem when people use point D to dismiss points A-C
And to add on to point D, it also alienated some of us Horde players who didn’t appreciate that direction of the Horde story and would have much preferred the stuff like Southshore getting wiped out by a tidal wave, etc
The world has also now been in a Cataclysm state for longer than it was in a Vanilla state. The high quality Horde leveling and the bad quality Alliance leveling has been the baseline new player experience for a decade now
And perhaps coincidentally, Alliance has been slowly struggling more and more gameplay-wise ever since. It’s not a surprise that Alliance BG PuG’s are going to generally perform worse than Horde BG PuG’s when we’ve been being conditioned to lose for a decade.
Didn’t Alliance dominate past Cata?
I mean they had to add Mercenary mode in 6.2 because the Alliance queue times were so bad because I think human racials were that OP in pvp?
Depends on if you’re talking about arenas or not. High level PvP Alliance did well but the notion that Alliance PuG’s are terrible compared to the Horde is pretty widely understood to the point that it’s become a meme.
Note: I can’t draw any causal relationship between the Alliance leveling experience being bad and conditioning people to lose and Alliance gameplay performance I just find it an interesting coincidence.
There’s really no excuse for what happened to the Worgen among the other races in CATA. They could have made (At the very least) a Bilgewater type settlement for the Worgen in Duskwood. Or made Surwhich more than just some tiny town in the Blasted Lands. They could have even gave them a settlement in Dustwallow since that fits their theme. But i guess that wouldn’t have worked out if Theramore ends up being destroyed still.
This goes beyond the the Worgen though. When it comes to the Alliance from CATA onward, a common theme is the Night Elves, Humans & Worgen being the main 3 Alliance races that tend to get their stuff destroyed & burning forever. Meanwhile the other races are lucky to sit on the sidelines being ignored.
From what I recall it was only a couple expansions ago where the horde actually started to overtake the Alliance in numbers.
I don’t think Cata has anything to do with the imbalance. There’s a whole mess of reasons for it and probably most of them are more player base caused than dev caused. Gamers in general have a tendency to want to take the path of least resistance, or at least what we think it is. And right now a big chunk of the problem is a self-fulfilling prophecy of people think the horde has a game play advantage so most people go there to play content, which means there’s more people available so it’s easier to get groups.
No argument here, just think it’s a different issue than the issue of amount of available faction content. I feel like if they do a zone revamp they could do something neat with Gilneas as a contested (as opposed to starter) zone with the city firmly in Gilnean hands.