Frankly, I hope the other tree is better for Havoc. Picking up small green wisps off the ground in the middle of the melee blob doesn’t sound like particularly thrilling gameplay. They should make Eye Beam vacuum them in or something 
The two biggest problems I see is the channel for Conduit of the Celestials, and doing damage equal to our health for Shado-pan. They seem cool for the rest of the trees but the start is the most concerning.
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My thoughts for a fix is just make Celestial Conduit not a channeled spell. Summon the August Celestial and they would do the damage and healing over 4 seconds. So then the last talent would be you could summon two or it lasts twice as long. Also it is an extra ability to press, so it could be a passive that works when you us your celestial.
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For Shado-pan, it sounds like a cool passive to go off but you have to do a lot of damage every 8 tiger palms. That’s not counting and of the CCs or detox because they cost energy. Single target you would get less then in aoe situations, which we are ok in, its single target that needs some help. The Flurry charges could be built up from combo strikes, it is our “thing”. Would be cool to see more strikes because you will do more combo strikes in the time it takes to get to 400 energy used. Another quick idea is to just make it every time you combo strike you do a Flurry strike.
edit - whoops I was looking at shado-pan from strictly windwalker prospective.
2nd edit - OK I have been thinking about shado-pan and the more I look at it the more I like it and am looking forward playing it.
That’s good to know, I mostly play Brewmaster and Windwalker and I’d consider them both bloated. Like, how many buttons do I need that create a Flamestrike Targeting Reticule and throw beer at the place I click?
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just thinking about this stuff this morning while messing around on SoD and realizing how much of a missed opportunity hero classes/talents are going to be to add to class fantasy.
Seeing all the complaints about Shado-Pan and thinking about my Monk (mostly play MW but BM and WW are fun) and comparing it to Conduit and man in terms of a class fantasy it sucks so much butt. Conduit actually seems super cool, but then you’ve just got a Monk that does more punching lol.
Like in my brain when I think of Shado-Pan I think of them as almost Ninja’s/assassins more than just a pure martial artist. Maybe you don’t want to give them stealth cause that’s a rogue thing, but in my mind these should be the monks that use their weapon skills even more than just fists.
The biggest problem with hero talents is they are just talents, most of which seem to be modifiers you’re going to have to keep track of (more weak aura bloat!) instead of cool visuals.
How amazing would it be if you were a Shadow-Pan monk and you’re Transcendence was turned into a smoke bomb teleport leaving behind an cloud that does something probably different than a rogue’s smoke bomb. Like there’s is so much cool stuff they could add if it was mostly visual/thematic but instead some classes are getting game changing abilities that fit with the class fantasy vs ones with 10 more 5% dmg modifiers to track.
Kinda glad I’ve turned into a classic andy the past few months as S3 got stale to me cause the more I think about this expansion the more I’m inclined to just play SoD or Cata for the indefinite future if I want to play WoW cause I can already tell this system is going to be as bad as Azerite Armor or Covenants on release.
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Yeah, Brew has way too many buttons. It’s like playing piano. It sucks because in SL Brew had a reasonable number of spells. Blizz did the same thing with Elemental shaman. Both specs had a reasonable number of spells in SL, but in DF they have crazy bloat and a bunch of spell interactions to keep track of.
When I saw season of discovery and they were making more classes fill more roles, like mage healer, rogue, shaman, and warlock tank. Then I heard about hero talents, I thought they were doing like season of discovery.
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That defensive choice node on Farseer is an absolute atrocity. Probably the worst defensive node I’ve seen on these, which wouldn’t feel so bad if Elemental wasn’t already one of the squishiest specs in the game. Then you have DK, already pretty tanky, getting to choose between two absolutely busted nodes.
I get that different people are obviously designing these, but shouldn’t there be a single person or small team in charge of reviewing them to make sure there’s some kind of logical consistency across them? Some of these are like S+ tier in terms of both flavor and power (Mages, always the main character), and others manage to be simultaneously weak and boring - I almost fell asleep reading the Pack Leader one.
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Still want a Fel Archer DH
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this is WoW, Not diablo 3 bro. Point to me the Warcraft Demon hunter that uses ranged weapons ever.
Rider of the Apocalypses, Slayer and Druid of the Claw are everything I could have hoped for.
I’m really looking forward to swapping forms again. Being able to tank and swap to cat form to deal a bit of damage for a few seconds then swap back is really exciting.
And getting to ride your mount in combat again… Sweet. I loved that order hall trait in Legion. And then being able to summon the 4 horseman like in Toghast? Yes please!
And then Slayer just sounds bad as$. I love Bladestorm, and I’m stoked that Fury is getting it. And I like the focus around Overpower and Bloodthirst.
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If you’re going to do bland passives like some of these reveals have shown, some part of the tree has to at least be VISUALLY COOL. You can’t have bland damage/percentage increases with nothing to show for it.
Reading through these comments, it’s very clear to me the overwhelming winners are the flashy ones (mostly).
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imagine being in a raid when everyone hits their visual procs and suddenly theres 60-100 summoned familiars added to the room.
Fun times will be had.
If your PC can handle it and you can stay connected without laggin out that is.
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Won’t summoning a demon make Hellcaller also a “demonology” talent tree? I mean, Diabolist is meant to be a mix between Demonology and Destro, so it makes sense to summon demons, but it gets destructive spells in the mix too.
Wither seems better than IC since Cata and SoC are going to apply it. More ways to get Wither is better than a single spell on long cd, and since all Wither does is replace Immo, I don’t see the weird DoT playstyle there (unless there will be some awkward reaction to stacks I’m not seeing).
As for Vile Taint, might be easier to just replace it with IC than redesigning Hellcaller around it.
In terms of curses, Mark of Legashi and Aura of E. seem vastly superior than a 1 min cd.
A demon summon might be out of place but I wouldn’t mind a Satyr appearing. Maybe a transformation into a Satyr? Not against expressive visuals. Afflic does lack in it and Destro have been kinda boring since spell appearance updates.
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Wouldn’t count on that. The “Aldrachi” in Aldrachi Reaver comes from the Vengeance Artifact weapon. Not to mention Vegeance does a lot more with soul fragments than Havoc.
“Fel-Scarred” is definitely more Havoc themed as the spec has a few talents referencing scars, while Vengeance has none. Not to mention the posterboy of Havoc (Illidan) famous quote “I am my scars” and all that.
Except for the part where you can change them as needed.
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I guess the point is that AR has a bunch of mechanics nearly identical to Havoc.
It’ll either end up identical to what we already have in Havoc or extremely convoluted.
Generic background from that weapon is kinda ‘meh’ too. So much for class fantasy…
For the only class that doesn’t have a third spec, our hero talents should stand out, since we only get 2 while everyone else gets 3 (and druids ofc get their extra).
Instead we basically get the T31 havoc set bonus. Everything built around throwing extra glaives in combat. It’s boring.
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I just saw it and while I like a lot of it, I wish they would change the name from all Pandaren stuff. It really drives home that if your a Monk and not a Panda, you are non existent and unimportant. Same deal with Paladins having only Humans and a Elf in their talent portraits. Would it kill them to put some more racially diverse stuff in?
Like IDK, a Zandalari Troll in for Holy or Ret, would be pretty cool, rather than generic screaming human man / woman (same as Warriors / Fury). Or I don’t know, do something radical like the portraits changing based on what race you play as.
People are disappointed with hunter all around it seems. For those who play BM, they want the spec to be centered around the pets, yet only 2-3 buttons/talents are about ordering the pets or summoning more. Most of the others are ether the hunter themselves attacking or giving the pets some passive with no real pet flavor. Pack Leader sounded like we would finally be able to call upon hordes are pets to fight, yet we got none of that and only, wait for it, more lame passives. The only other hero tree we got is Dark Ranger which, yet again, focuses on the hunter and not the pets. We BM mains are not happy flavor wise. Yes, Pack Leader fits in with gameplay, but if you talk to most people who play BM, you will hear them about wanting flavor.
Also I doubt the intern plays BM, cause if they did, they would be taking the pet focus flavor feed back and changing the BM part of Pack Leader to be such. Oh wait! The intern only does what his bosses tell him to do and I doubt the intern will be able to change it. Sad…
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Feedback for Hellcaller as a warlock main since TBC and player since Vanilla. (Also general feedback for design going into TWW)
I didn’t bother leaving feedback for Diabolist because other than being a huge flavor win the tree was very boring and tedious mechanically. It coasted 100% on flavor.
For Hellcaller, I like the idea overall, and giving destro a bit more movement is great, especially since we are clearly never getting a dedicated class dev again so something like killjaeden’s cunning is permanently off the table.
The Xalan and Peroth’arn nodes are boring damage boosts, but having knobs to turn for tuning that don’t affect the more active skills is great and every tree should have a few.
Blackened soul, along with most of the tree, doesn’t mix up gameplay much but as long as wither hits hard it can at least succeed at making your dots feel a bit beefier. The execute clause is interesting but seems to overlap a bit with Malevolence, since your withers are already acute during that time. I think it’s probably for the best to take some of the heavy lifting off the cd though.
I’m already of the opinion that modern wow is way too cooldown heavy. I think most players would prefer to feel strong consistently, not hit really hard for 20 seconds then wack mobs with a nerf bat for the other 100-160.
The curse choice node feels odd. There aren’t a lot of enemies that you will get much value for casting both weakness and tongues on, certainly not enough to make it worth taking over the aura.
I don’t like the idea of being forced to play in melee as a caster, especially on destro which is already one of the least mobile specs in the game. I think most players are going to resent being expected to pick aura of enfeeblement. If you really want to give players a way to cast curses in an aoe, either give us an ability like the venthyr spell from shadowlands, or make the node give us aoe curses at an even more reduced effectiveness. All you are doing by pressuring casters into melee (and annoying the actual melee in the process) is reminding us how you took away meta tanking.
The idea between Zevrim’s and Ilhoof’s seems to be consistent damage vs burst damage mitigation, which is tedious in both concept and execution. There is very little content nowadays that isn’t pulsing constant aoe damage of some kind. Sacrificing 10% max health on an absorb shield that will never be able to build back up after being knocked down the first time doesn’t sound fun.
Ilhoof’s also has anti-synergy with Dark Pact and it’s not clear if Ilhoof’s 15% soul leech is calculated before or after losing 10% health. Based on the wording I assume it’s after which makes it even more “feel bad” to take.
There are definitely some fights were you can take advantage of this but swapping between the two every fight seems tedious. On fights with constant outgoing damage where you can never use the extra 15% soul leech, Zevrim’s won’t even feel good because you can only use a healthstone once per fight. It’s interesting that both nodes feel a bit like noob traps in different ways. Neither are exactly bad, but they won’t feel good either.
Mark of Xavius is my least favorite node in the tree because it lies to players about being quality of life when it’s actually a promise to abandon quality of life. Mark looks like a node to make multidotting less tedious, but what it actually means is that vile taint will never be a proper aoe dot refresh like shadow crash. Cataclysm isn’t exactly the same but it still makes it feel like you’re getting less bang for your buck. Is letting vile taint refresh agony ever time, like shadow crash can with priest, really too much to ask.
I understand that Priest has an actual class dev and warlock doesn’t, but it’s still frustrating to see every other class constantly get better versions of what warlock has. Watching my favorite class go downhill in class design since WoD is demoralizing, even if I love plenty of other classes and sometimes play them more than warlock.
Warlock class design was the worst it has ever been at the start of DF. I’m happy to say it’s gotten better with every patch and I’m optimistic that it will keep trending upward, but when I watch mage’s dev take spells like blizzard or flamestrike out of the tree and give it to them default, it makes me feel like warlocks are living in a world of outdated class design.
We are heading towards the Worldsoul Saga. Why has class design gone backwards? Why are new players not getting their iconic skills until 11 when getting them at 10 when you select your specialization has worked and felt good since Cata?
Why do we have to dedicate talent points to being either basically competent in aoe or single target when classes have been allowed to do both for years to great effect? I don’t mind taking talents to excel in one or the other, but having to dedicate 3-4 points to do more than tickle a pack of enemies doesn’t feel good.
Why is every class required to juggle a million annoying maintenance buffs and effects instead of just being fun to play? Why does it feel like almost every dps spec needs to have a weakaura set up to track all their procs and buffs and debuffs?
Removing blizzard and flamestrike from the mage trees was a great idea. Do that for everyone. In fact, stop making us dedicate 10 points into passives and abilities that used to be baked into the leveling process. Please just design talent trees that feel good to invest in, that shouldn’t be a big ask for what is still the most successful mmo out there.
Removing the godawful dread touch stacking was a great idea. Please do that for every spec’s terrible tedious upkeep abilities.
Removing rune of power was a great idea, please do that for every ability that inexplicably makes specs less fun to play.
Class design has been getting better across the board since the start of DF, please keep it up. Please don’t stop now that you have momentum built up. I’m cautiously optimistic for the direction the game is taking in TWW, as are many players that don’t spend their time wishing the devs harm on reddit.
Delves could accomplish what was fumbled with thorghast and so much more. The new faster patch cycle could mean pulling of a Suramar style story with the nerubians without the kneecapping of painfully long timegates and rep grinds. Warbands could be the precursor to an instancing system in Midnight that people don’t start finding tedious a week into the expansion like with WoD. Even I can’t figure out how you can salvage the ruination of professions that happened in DF but I’m holding out hope.
PS: For the love of god take shadowdance out of the rogue class tree. You might as well put mutilate or blade flurry in there if iconic subclass abilities are just being stuffed into class trees to limit certain specs’ options
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