Gearing is terrible and unrewarding because of casuals

[Kreivos-area-52]

I don’t understand casuals wanting heroic level gear or mythic level gear in order to do continue to do world quest, lfr and pet battles.

You need gear for PvP, otherwise we return to the days where raiders just run roughshod over everyone.

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

There was a massive crowd of people who didn’t like Blood Elves joining the Horde in BC. Who didn’t like Worgen, or Goblins, or Pandaren, or Pet Battles, or any number of features that have been added over to the game.

You could easily blame the sub loss on any of those just as much as you can blame them on LFR or the gearing systems. Correlation does not imply causation.

To be fair, and whilst I acknowledge the fact that people have different likes / dislikes and what are “breaking points” for certain people.

The difference I see with this opinion is that all of those things that you stated are optional in the game. You can opt into pet battles or not, you can opt into playing either of those races or not.

For me, and I would imagine a lot of other people that wouldn’t be a sticking point for me. I don’t like Goblins so I just don’t play them.
The number of people that have that much dislike to them that they can’t play the game for the possibility of running into another player that has that race, I would have to assume are in the minority.

These systems that we are discussing in this thread however are largely unavoidable, they affect all of our gear acquisition (outside of Azerite) even including from low level quests now.

Even if we deliberately avoid things like Darkshore, or weekly cache systems we still have to deal with the fact that the community derives it’s perceptions from them, and it will negatively affect your ability to play the game unless you are doing Mythic raid content as you are simply missing out on those gearing rewards that are available to everyone else.

Ultimately we don’t know why people leave the game, only Blizzard potentially does. Mostly I would imagine it would be real world situation changes that prompt people to leave.
However even with that, I don’t think the two situations are comparable. Simply the fact that you can opt out of one but not the other makes it impossible for them to be considered equally.

In PVP they shouldn’t have an advantage over you with gear that they got from PVE. Thats always been a problem with trying to balance PVE and PVP. If I raid, I shouldn’t be able to walk into a battle ground and destroy people. They need to separate pvp from pve.

It seems weird how after so many iterations of PvP gearing that worked they would just turn around and say "well you know what? All gear is the same! Get it from PvP? Same stats. Get it from PvE? Same stats! Get it from raids? SAME STATS!!!

All that matters is ilvl which is a bit disappointing. Some of the rewards from BoD were interesting in the fact that they were better in Zuldazar and subsequently that raid, and that was the same with Uldir’s Azerite trait system.

So it makes little sense why that wouldn’t be the prevailing system over the gaps between PvE and PvP for example.

Raiders sad they can’t use their epic gear in PvP? Toughen up princess you get to follow an alternative progression path.
PvPers sad they can’t use their PvP gear in raid? Too bad. Doing arena doesn’t necessarily mean you can do Mythic raids, time to progress from the bottom.

Allocated itemisation from PvP such as PvP power and resilience that consumed “stat allowance” on items was a great system.
It slightly reduced the pieces effectiveness in PvE whilst providing a reasonable benefit to PvP. It made you want to get it and use it if you were doing PvP.

The fact that you need to be 1800-2100 rated to get gear equivalent to embassy rewards just completely devalues PvP gearing. It’s just so much easier to get elsewhere.
If that gear instead had PvP specific stats that made them better in PvP it would be so much more rewarding and worthwhile.

[Kreivos-area-52]

Even if we deliberately avoid things like Darkshore, or weekly cache systems we still have to deal with the fact that the community derives it’s perceptions from them, and it will negatively affect your ability to play the game unless you are doing Mythic raid content as you are simply missing out on those gearing rewards that are available to everyone else.

As I’ve said I wouldn’t be entirely opposed to some number adjustment. I even proposed a different system a few posts above (which no one’s responded to). But ultimately I think non-raiders should be allowed to progress. I remember the days of Vanilla when you really didn’t have a lot of options outside of raids/dungeons/extremely high rank PvP.

PvPers sad they can’t use their PvP gear in raid? Too bad. Doing arena doesn’t necessarily mean you can do Mythic raids, time to progress from the bottom.

Yeah I was in a full set of mostly PvP gear throughout BC. Tried to prove I was serious about PvE though and intended to gear up in Karazhan legitimately even while wearing Vengeful/Brutal gladiator gear. Sadly that moxie wasn’t enough to get me into Karazhan groups.

Allocated itemisation from PvP such as PvP power and resilience that consumed “stat allowance” on items was a great system.
It slightly reduced the pieces effectiveness in PvE whilst providing a reasonable benefit to PvP. It made you want to get it and use it if you were doing PvP.

This does give a person a dilemma though; do they want to be good in PvP and suck against mobs they’re killing, or vice versa? It was a dilemma on PvP servers because you had to make that choice while actively taking part in the open world, so you were screwed either way.
I really don’t mind the system we have now.

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

As I’ve said I wouldn’t be entirely opposed to some number adjustment. I even proposed a different system a few posts above (which no one’s responded to). But ultimately I think non-raiders should be allowed to progress.

I didn’t actually see that earlier so I’ve gone back and taken a look
Also I completely agree that non-raiders should be allowed a progression path. I just don’t think what is currently implemented is the best option.

So just a thought on the whole WF/TF issue. How would you guys feel about a compromise like this?
-Take TF/WF out and return the Valor Point system.
-Current gear ilvl drops remain the same across the board.
-Most every activity in the game awards Valor Points. Easier stuff awards some, harder stuff awards more.
-Valor Points can be spent upgrading any piece of gear by increments of 5 ilvls, up to currently 425.
-Upgrades cost more the higher it goes, so it definitely will be quite a time investment to get that piece to 425.

Casuals can have meaningful gear progression doing what they want and running harder content would have far more obvious benefits. Thoughts?

Honestly, I wouldn’t have too many issues with your proposition. As long as the acquisition rates were reasonable. For one, I wouldn’t want the system to be “do 4 WQs for an upgrade” for example, or “do 4 raid bosses” for an upgrade.
I think it needs to be a meaningful progression, not something handed to you.

I also wouldn’t want players who do Mythic raiding for example to get an abundance more than the average player. Because at that stage, if gear is more normalised (warfront/weekly caches reduced) that content becomes more rewarding on a base level by default.
So I wouldn’t think Mythic raiders should be able to do an upgrade every 3 bosses where normal raiders require 10 for example.
If difficulty was something like a 5-10% increase I think it’s still rewarding but not over the top.

Also in that situation I would totally be ok with WF being able to grant those first 1 or 2 upgrades for a bonus. Sockets back to being pre-determined on gear though

Yeah I was in a full set of mostly PvP gear throughout BC. Tried to prove I was serious about PvE though and intended to gear up in Karazhan legitimately even while wearing Vengeful/Brutal gladiator gear. Sadly that moxie wasn’t enough to get me into Karazhan groups.

That’s pretty unfortunate. Do you think acquiring Heroic gear would have made it easier?
Were there many groups doing Kara then? If you were in Venge/Brutal we are talking 2-3 tiers of content after Kara.

I personally didn’t have any real issues myself at that time on my Hunter that I used for PvP, but I was fortunate to be in a pretty chill casual guild on him at the time, and I was smart enough to weave my Steady Shots between auto attack timing, which was pretty much the only requirement to be a “good hunter” at that point of the game

This does give a person a dilemma though; do they want to be good in PvP and suck against mobs they’re killing, or vice versa? It was a dilemma on PvP servers because you had to make that choice while actively taking part in the open world, so you were screwed either way.
I really don’t mind the system we have now.

With a reasonable gearing system in the game I don’t see why we require significant mob scaling systems to combat inflated ilvls. It would be slightly less effective in PvP gear still, however since mobs are scaled around the expected early max level gear it would still be considerably stronger than just hitting level cap.

It’s a pay off that you are better in wPvP in that situation. Not everything needs to be as good as everything else.
Having meaningful benefits and disadvantages offers you more choice at how you play the game and what is important to you.
If there is no cost to anything there is no process. You just get the best of X regardless of anything else. Cost is what makes choice interesting.

[Kreivos-area-52]

Also I completely agree that non-raiders should be allowed a progression path. I just don’t think what is currently implemented is the best option.

Which is fine, and debatable. As mentioned I just don’t want to go back to the days of T3 people picking on my poor green geared butt without any recourse.

I think it needs to be a meaningful progression, not something handed to you.

The idea behind my suggestion is that if you saw anyone in a 425 piece, you know they worked for it. Whether it was from tackling the hardest content in the game or busted their butt grinding the points to upgrade something that high. It could also provide some interesting choices in terms of gearing. For my Arcane Mage a PvP trinket was one of the top ones. I could opt to upgrade one of those rather than hope for a PvE raid trinket drop. Stuff like that.

I also wouldn’t want players who do Mythic raiding for example to get an abundance more than the average player.

Eh, if a Normal raider can eventually catch up to a Mythic raider that’d be fine. You know the Normal raider would be working for it. If a skilled Mythic raider can extract rewards from mythic content then I have no problem with them gearing up faster.

That’s pretty unfortunate. Do you think acquiring Heroic gear would have made it easier?
Were there many groups doing Kara then? If you were in Venge/Brutal we are talking 2-3 tiers of content after Kara.

Goes back to what I’ve said in other threads but getting groups together for content was extremely difficult. Low-pop PvP server, played around 12 midnight due to work times…it really sucked. My BC experience was mostly AV and daily quests.

There weren’t many groups doing Kara, or even heroics for that matter, and the ones that did form didn’t invite me because they didn’t actually want someone who needed gear from those places.

It’s a pay off that you are better in wPvP in that situation. Not everything needs to be as good as everything else.

I won’t deny that I’ve taken advantage of that situation. My Venge/Brutal geared rogue took down some of the most famous raiders on my server because they were in PvE gear and I was in PvP. Is it good to have to make that choice though? Also debatable.

[Zeusgodofsky-thrall (Zeusgodofsky)]

You must not have played Other MMOrpgs the reward for something hard are over they are split between time based rewards and skill based rewards in modern MMOrpgs and there are alot of them like that now WoW BFA just finally catched up to them by now and it’s coming in 8.2 soon!

[Haavi-barthilas (Haavi)]

Which is fine, and debatable. As mentioned I just don’t want to go back to the days of T3 people picking on my poor green geared butt without any recourse.

I think that’s a reasonable request.

The idea behind my suggestion is that if you saw anyone in a 425 piece, you know they worked for it. Whether it was from tackling the hardest content in the game or busted their butt grinding the points to upgrade something that high. It could also provide some interesting choices in terms of gearing. For my Arcane Mage a PvP trinket was one of the top ones. I could opt to upgrade one of those rather than hope for a PvE raid trinket drop. Stuff like that.

Yep, absolutely agree. That would be pretty different and cool if implemented right.
Honestly it would probably put a bit more stress on Blizzard’s tuning of things like trinkets. But being able to choose a specific piece that is only obtainable at a lower level and upgrading it because you know it would be good, even though it will cost a butt load of resources to attain would be pretty cool.

Eh, if a Normal raider can eventually catch up to a Mythic raider that’d be fine. You know the Normal raider would be working for it. If a skilled Mythic raider can extract rewards from mythic content then I have no problem with them gearing up faster.

Yeah, I think I overlooked your “scaling cost on upgrades” initially which means it makes sense that Mythic raiders get more resources as their upgrades also would cost significantly more.
If a normal raider puts in the effort to catch up through their content (which would require a lot more dedication) I don’t see any issue with them catching up to a Mythic raider who for examples only does the raid and doesn’t participate outside. It makes sense to me.

Goes back to what I’ve said in other threads but getting groups together for content was extremely difficult. Low-pop PvP server, played around 12 midnight due to work times…it really sucked. My BC experience was mostly AV and daily quests.

There weren’t many groups doing Kara, or even heroics for that matter, and the ones that did form didn’t invite me because they didn’t actually want someone who needed gear from those places.

End of content can be like that. It’s why I personally prefer to be in a casual guild, they are generally more accepting of who they take. Of course guilds aren’t for everyone.
I do think that flex raiding up to Heroic has been a really big boon to that situation though.
Instead of having static rosters and having limited space, you can now afford to take extra people who are interested.
It’s never fun excluding someone simply because you have a full group and “we’d rather have a Pally for the buffs” or something similar.

I won’t deny that I’ve taken advantage of that situation. My Venge/Brutal geared rogue took down some of the most famous raiders on my server because they were in PvE gear and I was in PvP. Is it good to have to make that choice though? Also debatable.

Yep. Pretty much anything emotional driven can be considered subjective. So while I feel it would be cool, someone else might not feel that way.
I think design wise though offering players choices is better for engagement though as it requires us to think about the game.
But again, others like simplicity.

I wouldn’t for example argue that Mario would be a great game to add cost/benefit choices. Do you want Mario to run faster but jump lower? or do you want Mario to be slightly slower but have a loftier jump?
Some games are designed around simplicity and benefit from it others can integrate it well.
It’s personal preference which side of the fence you are on.

[Kesnal-moon-guard]

You must not have played Other MMOrpgs the reward for something hard are over they are split between time based rewards and skill based rewards in modern MMOrpgs and there are alot of them like that now WoW BFA just finally catched up to them by now and it’s coming in 8.2 soon!

I was raised to work hard and appreciate what I earn in life, I took those same values to video games. I worked hard in life and am sitting very well today. Clearly, you don’t hold those same values and standards but that’s alright.

You keep doing what brings you happiness in life, I’ll keep working hard and earning what I need in both video games and irl. In the end I hope you don’t have regrets on the values you held, I know I won’t have regrets.

Some of us still believe that hard work and effort should bring a greater reward than someone who does next to nothing and holds their hand out.

Keep doing what makes you happy though.

[Grimmox-wyrmrest-accord (Grimmox)]

Completely agree didn’t even read the OP.

[Kreivos-area-52]

End of content can be like that. It’s why I personally prefer to be in a casual guild, they are generally more accepting of who they take. Of course guilds aren’t for everyone.

Tried the guild thing of course. One guild that was active around my times ended up completely useless and do-nothing. Couldn’t count on them for a single thing. Another guild was in its fledgling stages putting together a raid group. I ended up doing 1/4th of a Karazhan run with them for one night. The next night I logged on and I found I was removed (not kicked, the guild was disbanded) and the leader had vanished never to be seen again.

BC was not a great time for me, but at least I could gank people and do daily quests? Lol.

[Eriskigal-wyrmrest-accord]

OP is mad other people have virtual items in a game that are almost as good as he does and which he feels he “works harder” for by playing the game “better” than they do.

[Eriskigal-wyrmrest-accord]

the majority of the player base is casual this generation.

And the metric that defines a casual is…?

Whatever someone who wants to put you down this week says it is.

[Spiçy-area-52 (Spiçy)]

Whatever someone who wants to put you down this week says it is.

Does the same rule apply to people who call others “elitists”?

[Eriskigal-wyrmrest-accord]

I don’t want you to have the same ilvl as me if you don’t put forth the effort and time. I don’t understand casuals wanting heroic level gear or mythic level gear in order to do continue to do world quest, lfr and pet battles.

I don’t even understand this argument. If “casuals” (a group that only actually exists in some players minds) cannot gear up slowly and gradually, how can they ever begin to run higher content that requires a higher ilvl of gear?

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

OP is mad other people have virtual items in a game that are almost as good as he does and which he feels he “works harder” for by playing the game “better” than they do.

Ah the “virtual items” statement. I always found that stance to be funny as well.

[Spiçy-area-52 (Spiçy)]

Ah the “virtual items” statement. I always found that stance to be funny as well.

It is weird that people who use the “theyre just pixels” are usually using that argument to get those pixels. So to them its wrong for you to want it, but ok for them

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

This game is a job guys!

Speaking of jobs… I know some manual labors that put in more effort that I do and get paid a lot less than I do.

[Kesnal-moon-guard]

Speaking of jobs… I know some manual labors that put in more effort that I do and get paid a lot less than I do.

Sounds like you put in more effort in life to get to where you are then.

Some people call it a deal at cooking fries at a fast food joint for the next 20 years and complain about making minimum wage, other people acquire a set of skills that brings home a good paycheck.

To each their own.

[Orctang-area-52 (Orctang)]

Sounds like you put in more effort in life to get to where you are then.

This could be debatable, but you could assume that if you want to. I know some people too!

[Kesnal-moon-guard]

This could be debatable, but you could assume that if you want to. I know some people too

If you have a good job then you’d need to have the skills to actually keep that job or someone else will come along and replace you since they bring more to the table than you could.

Some random guy who has cooked fries for the last 20 years doesn’t walk into a professional job that brings home 300k a year without having an actual set of skills. Knowing people doesn’t amount to much if you’re just a random scrub with zero skills.