GDKP has ruined classic's community

The problem with GDKPs is 3 synergistic parts feeding off of, and then amplyfying one another…

  1. Gold Farming

  2. The Black Market

  3. Gear farming

ONE: GDKPs have become the single most lucrative gold farm available to most players at this point, because of points 2 and 3. Bots and gold selling boosters dominate most other farming venues, driving down commodities like herbs/ore and causing inflation, and an ideal venue for gear farming because drops can be “guaranteed”, provided you bring enough gold.

TWO. The Black Market (Bots and Gold Sellers) have ever increasing demand for their services, because of points 1 and 3. More people are incentivized into raiding as an ideal farming method and gear distribution method. They are then more likely to buy consumable materials and/or gold from the Black Market to effectively compete for those GDKP raid spots or GDKP raid loot.

THREE: GDKPs have become a dominant method of gear farming because of points 1 and 2. Players are more likely to attend GDKPs because they have a financial incentive to go, and because there is a black market to let them “buy their gear” when they do attend GDKPS.

The GDKP and paid carry meta that infests both retail and classic is a sizable problem, that exacerbates and promotes the bot/gold seller problem.

IMO, ban gold sales, ban bots, ban players who buy gold, ban advertisement in game of all boost, paid carry (more a retail thing, like AOTC or M+15 carries), and GDKPs.

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Here’s more from Kronos:

"Trust is hard to gain on a game and you can never be sure of someone intentions, i feel that vanilla wow with a healthy server pop is the best possible place gdkp can exist. Leaders who are shady or who act poorly are unlikely to have members come back and once trust is built or destroyed word travels quickly within the community. The gdkp runs i was in had players not spending much gold at the start and as trust was built they invested more into it. I doubt abuse would happen and if it did im sure the community would work it out as it was needed. This issue is purely contingent on the individual making smart decisions and GM intervention in major issues shouldn’t be a big problem.

The issue of account sharing and gold lending/paying never seemed to be much of an issue in the past. It didn’t always happen and when it did it never led to any problems that i know of. If you are paying someone to raid on your alt and you give them your own gold to spend for your character you aren’t really hurting anyone. In fact, the gold you spend is just getting added to the pot and generally people would not know the difference unless they had knowledge of it happening. The ethical side of account sharing and compensation to the person playing at first seems wrong. When you look at it though its just like anything else in-game. You are paying someone to do a service and that service doesn’t hurt others… if it was pvp then yes that would be wrong as its a lot more competitive environment. In GDKP runs regardless of whether or not you win loot everyone is winning gold. A simple solution would be to not allow account sharing when participating in GDKP raids. I don’t feel that action is warranted and i lean toward the side of leaving it unregulated with the possibility of changing that in the future if action is needed.

Ok, now for the big one. Gold selling. This was the initial and strongest reason i have seen for being against allowing GDKP to exist on K3. The claim is very logical, people want gear - gear costs gold - people need gold - people buy gold - people get gear. However, i would argue that people who will buy gold will do it regardless of another temptation. There are already plenty of temptations for people to purchase gold on wow. Every aspect of the game has ways in which having more gold just makes it easier/quicker. People buying gold to use in GDKP raids is not a fault of the system but a fault of the player. I have no data or evidence of how many gold buying bans happened during the K1 GDKP runs but i will say that i did not hear of any people who participated get in trouble. If players buy gold for a GDKP run they should be banned just like in any situation and i feel like that is their fault and their fault only. Gold may be hard to come by but GDKP raids reward consistency and patience. People will get gold the more they come to spend on items they want and resorting to gold buying is not something people should feel pushed into."

And a response:

"GDKP would only accomplish one thing…
Encouraging Money for Gold transactions…

If you like GDKP you where born with a silver spoon in your mouth and deserve a slap in order to wake up… you should not be able to pay your way through everything it creates nothing but trouble if not for the warped mind of the buyer then for those who cannot afford it like for example rogue’s or shamans who cannot do Tribute run farms or those less skilled at the auctionhouse… Gold should be for BoE, materials and such but not easy guaranteed tickets to get in a raid and get what you want without having to socialize or work your way through ranks or loot system…

Furthermore it would create a lot more issues for Game Masters… especially maintaining a default minimum price or if a guild suddenly decides to scam a person and ask for 50% more than was agreed upon or the player gets item but doesnt pay or the sellers take gold but give item to another…

Heck gold sellers can even use it as an excuse to transfer gold and the warden system would need extra additions to look away from certain cases in raid and what to consider a shady transaction… for example if a player pays 1k gold for a simple dagger no one needed who is to say that person wasnt desperate for it instead of trying to trade ? They would have to add a lot of stuff to the warden and game masters would have to circle raids like vultures trying to differentiate between silver spoon fools versus sellers/buyers… almost no diff aside from 1 side could have farmed it while the other side hasnt.

This creates an ocean of issues and only causes those interrested in GDKP to become anti-social within a game that is meant for the social… if you want to pay for everything and be anti social then retail accepts that fully…"

Not only is this a Slippery Slope but Correlation does NOT equal Causation. GDKP is NOT the CAUSE of Gold Buying.

Wait, so Players are NOT allowed to give each other Gold (doesn’t matter how much it is)? Doesn’t matter what the gold is being given for, it’s IRRELEVANT.

Personally, IDC about the GDKP gold. I care that Alts were being played by somebody else that wasn’t the owner of the account…interesting.

Um, that’s what people are SUPPOSED to do? Pay you for a service that you provide for them :thinking:

Somebody ASKS for Portaling Services, and I oblige and get PAID for PROVIDING said Service…what else do you want people to do?

Also, notice how it’s an ASSUMPTION trying to push forward as FACT, when it’s not but whatever.

Slippery Slope and Correlation does NOT (I repeat, does NOT) equal Causation. GDKP is NOT the CAUSE of Gold Buying.

Agreed.

Players should be banned for buying gold, REGARDLESS in what the bought gold is used for!

Agree. Nobody should be pushed to do that. My problem is that GDKP is NOT the reason people are buying gold. Eliminating GDKP does NOT stop the Gold Buying market. Period.

This is a particular relevant selection from the wowhead article:

"…as pick-up groups became more accessible in Wrath of the Lich King, using gold in place of arbitrary points became a popular way to distribute gear in pick-up groups; players would pay for an item and the gold would be distributed among the rest of the raid. This way, everyone wins - even if you didn’t get an item, you ended up making some money for participating in the raid.

Sounds neat, but this equal-redistribution of wealth version of GDKP doesn’t exist anymore. As anything in life where money is involved, people quickly discovered ways of making it even more profitable - why sell every item for a flat amount when you can start a bidding war? Why share the proceeds with a bunch of pugs when you can farm the same raid and sell the same items with your heavily geared guild group in half the time? Selling runs didn’t start with GDKP, particularly at the highest levels of World First competitive raiding, but the general popularity of those pug runs paved the way for it to become socially acceptable to trade gold for items. Today, we see the results of that refinement, with gigantic sales Discord servers trading millions and nearly every guild in the top 50+ routinely selling their own raid spots, offering achievements, mounts, gear, battle pets, titles, and more. Guilds routinely rake in thousands of dollars worth of gold each tier, which is in turn used to buy BoEs or WoW Tokens to pay for gametime and services; at $30 USD for a faction change and $25 for a realm change, it costs roughly $1,650 for a guild to change servers and transfer 30 characters from Alliance to Horde, as the vast majority of high end raiding guilds have done over the last few years - nearly all of that is paid for with gold.

Think that’s a lot? Method claimed to have spent 40-100 million gold preparing for the Race to World First Battle of Dazar’alor. Limit spent 10-15 million gold faction changing their entire roster twice to get an extra piece of War Mode PvP gear on each character. Who knows how much was spent buying Corrupted BoE’s during Ny’alotha, but you can be certain it was quite a bit more, as prices inflated beyond all reason due to the early power spike from Corruptions; even mid-tier guilds have Auction House flippers searching small servers for relatively cheap BoEs to buy, server transfer, and resell for 2-5x the price.

So what does this have to do with botting and RMT in Classic WoW? Because Classic isn’t Vanilla. Guilds aren’t jealously guarding raid strategies anymore, pugs are common, players know which items are worth pursuing now better than they did before, and there are a lot more avenues of communication now than just the official realm forums. The sales tactics and infrastructure used to trade gold may have been refined after Vanilla, but it’s in full force now and Classic is just another avenue of profitable business. Even the guilds who explicitly refuse to participate in RMT are still affected by it, as much of the gold they take in payment originates from some bot or seller. Of course it isn’t just restricted to WoW, but that’s a whole other story."

Here, I’ll make it easier for everybody. Do I think it’s garbage that some (not all) of the WoW community want to auction off Gear rather than doing a Rolling System? Yes. Do I think the GDKP system is greedy and exclusive? Yes.

Do I think GDKP has advantages over other Groups (that don’t partake through GDKP) means? No. Because having less Gold just means you rolled less and still lost the Gear, anyway. Not to mention, a waste of gold. I’m judging GDKP on its own merit and completely exclusive from Gold Buying.

There’s correlation, but I’m 1000% convinced that GDKP is NOT the CAUSE of Gold Buying. Gold Buying occurs to each individual’s own philosophy. There’s temptation into Gold Buying for ANYTHING, in this game. If (keyword) I (personally) were to buy gold (I wouldn’t), it wouldn’t be for GDKP purposes. I’d invest in Mounts, try to dictate the AH, pay for my Alts on other Servers, etc. ('cause those are things that matter to ME).

Regardless of what the bought gold is being used for, buying gold is WRONG, period.

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Make sure Blizzard knows about this so they can ban the WoW Token.

Let me rephrase it for you, since we (a general “we”, no one in particular) like to twist and distort people’s words. Buying Gold, through unprovided Blizzard services, is wrong. The WoW Token is part of Blizzard’s provided services. Going outside of Blizzard’s services to obtain gold, bot, boost (I don’t mean Dungeon Boosting, I mean you pay a Service, particularly an outside one, not of Blizzard, and your Character is magically level capped), etc., is wrong.

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Honestly Cancer is perfectly fine it changes your perspective and can dramatically change you for the better although it doesn’t last obviously.

Now when it comes to GDKP I get paid out. I get the item I want. I can just leave after. Not being stuck in a guild and having to raid with people who suck and/or annoying on discord.

I hope the GDKP supporters keep posting. Nothing like giving this thread more traction!!

If you join GDKP you are fully aware you are part of RMT.

None of you are fooling anyone.

I agree to continue this thread. Just not for the reasons that you think. I think it’s important to differentiate the hatred of GDKP, for what it is rather than using Gold Buying as a scapegoat as to why GDKP is “bad”.

No, they’re not. Merely joining GDKP groups doesn’t make you a part of RMT culture.

The projection is strong. Neither are any of you (those opposed to GDKP). Gold buying is just a scapegoat to eliminate GDKP. I don’t think any of you are really all that concerned about Gold Buying, in general. I just think the goal is to eliminate GDKP and forget that Gold Buying is still an issue regardless if GDKP exists or not.

Eliminating GDKP will NOT stop Gold Buying. So, how can we ACTUALLY stop Gold Buying? Eliminating GDKP is NOT it.

EDIT: I would accept it more, if some (not all) of you would just come clean and just be like “you know what? GDKP sucks and shouldn’t exist because I hate it.” I would respect that response a lot better than this fake narrative that GDKP is the CAUSE for Gold Buying (even though it’s not), therefore we should ban GDKP. Nope, sorry, not buying it. With or without GDKP, Gold Buying would STILL be a problem. Eliminating GDKP just means that Gold Buyers just won’t participate in GDKP runs, anymore.

Doesn’t stop them from using their bought gold to play the AH, funnel money to alts on another Server, in-game gambling via “Deathrolling” (yes, this IS a thing and would most likely replace GDKP), etc.

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Don’t care, never bought gold and never will.

Imagine thinking “If you use the auction house, you are fully aware you are part of RMT!”

Again, my belief is and always will be that GDKP’s are fine and that Blizzard needs to do a better job policing their game as a whole, a position you do not seem to care for.

By your own standard you should also be calling for bans to world first races and people using the auction house since it’s obvious a lot of player spend ludicrous of money to fund their race to world world first and their consumable needs.

But you don’t, again, this is jealous players attacking a system they don’t like, not because they hate “gold selling” but because they first and foremost, hate gdkps.

We are just going around and around in circles at this point.

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GDKP it’s ugly thing . And yes if the community stops doing it nobody would need so much gold … and the prices would go down.

LOL

It’s not the fact that Gold Buyers are “buying gold”. It’s that they’re buying “too much gold”. Can’t make this up :rofl:

GDKP would exist even if there were zero gold buyers. The cost of items would change but it would exist.

If you want to say “gold sellers/buyers are bad” then I’m right there with you in agreement, but getting mad that a group is doing something that you arent is childish.

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If people just offer a fair loot system that gives people the feeling of at least some self-determination when it comes to loot then the popularity and appeal of GDKP goes down dramatically for buyers. Make no mistake, GDKP is nothing without willing buyers because carries aren’t going to keep showing up with world buffs and full consumables without them.

Most buyers are attracted to GDKP because it gives them both the feeling of self-determination and self-empowerment that is lacking in traditional soft-res/roll/hard res pugs or in many loot council guilds where loot councils dangle certain pieces of gear in front of people like a piece of meat and expect them to jump through hoops like monkeys for it for months on end, only for them to watch it go to someone less deserving due to some personal reason.

Stop trying to scam or waste people’s time in pugs, and stop expecting people to give absolute obedience, trust, and commitment to your loot council when you can’t even trust your raiders enough to know what pieces of loot are optimal or good for them.

Yep, this is basically not different than people who whine about master looter.

Couldnt agree more. Well said mate.

If there weren’t any bots, less gold would be in the economy and the gressil would maybe be bought for 10000g instead of 1980000g. But 10k would feel like 198k

The only problem is that gold selling allows people to pay (real money)-to-win instead of farm-to-win (or run 5 gdkps to earn money first before being able to afford something)

I don’t even engage in GDKPs and I’m fine with them. I have a guild I raid weekly with so why would I care about others getting loot?

People seem to be too invested in what others are getting when they should just focus on themselves

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What about the people wich don’t have that luck to be in a such guild?
Oh wait this is not a problem for you . So I shouldn’t ask.