I’m glad to see this kind of concern even when CC forums doesn’t have the response from Devs required but it’s good, I posted a similar thread some months ago here.
Thanks to Wumba for talking about this topic, How is possible that Blizzard develop a game that brings raids as a core gameplay but the system is flexible on Normal and Heroic just to change to a static player number for the best challenge, there’s a lot of guilds with less that 20 players that can’t try Mythic due to this requirement that’s not just 20 but also you must take on consideration a bench in case someone doesn’t show for raid night. It just change the whole set of rules around this gameplay, excluding a portion of the playerbase.
10m mythic needs to return asap. 20m is the final boss of raid logistics. I too used to be a CE raider from HFC - Uldir and quit out of a similar reason. 20m isnt fun at all, especially not for the officers and gm who are responsible for recruitment. Its hell, worse than a job almost.
10m mythic option
cross-realm option from week 1 !
lockouts similar to HC so getting pugs in from LFG is an option and not dead IDs for applicants
I like having a fixed size. I think it’s made for a better experience. Feeling a wild fluctuation of difficulty between big&small when it comes to mechanics (or having the mechanics themselves behave differently after you pass a break point) isn’t a great experience when attempting the hardest content the game has to offer imo. A consistent experience is really valuable when you are working on a challenge.
No matter what size they choose it’s not going to be perfect for everyone.
I like larger sized raids and think they lead to better gameplay opportunities for a lot of reasons. But one that’s really obvious is that with only 10 spots when challenging the hardest content in the game you are going to have to be a ton more selective about what you bring. Much like the high level M+, the limited number of spots may force whole classes out of common play because they simply aren’t as valuable when it comes to their performance/kit as any of the other dozen options when attempting such challenging content.
I think there’s a lot of value that 20man mythic brings as a content. Now I know that might not be a popular opinion.
I think they could alternate between 10man and 20 man (a bit like tbc did, it had 10m and 25 man raid), because adding another difficulty isn’t something that would really help making it better considering they always had difficulties tuning it for 10 vs 25m and well just with current Sepulcher tuning just 20man seems a challenge on that part.
I like guilds being relevant for that content, there’s enough pug content so I think them unlocking crossrealm later on at a fixed date and keeping a hard lockout is good for that part.
There’s many other things too they can do to make mythic a bit more palatable other than just shrinking it down without changing too much like having better skips.
The problem is that WoW has a playerbase on which a lot of guilds doesn’t work well with 20 players, there’s cores with 10-15 and they like that structure and can cleare Heroic really fast but can’t access Mythic without going through all these logistics, even with more skips, less bosess…etc other options, if you bring content that’s Flex between 10-30 and then change it to 20, there’s going to be players on bench or lack of players to reach the minimum amount.
Like said before I think by another poster unless you make it flex then any numbers can become a problem.
And Flex can’t really have a fixed difficulty, which is the point of mythic. To have fights well tuned.
And while yes that eliminate some guilds, one would say it’s also this guild fault for not recruiting the right amount of players. And yes I’ve done recruitment before, so I can understand the difficulty.
its too late for that. when blizzard got rid of 10man heroic raiding and 25 man heroic raiding and baselined it to 20 man mythic they destroyed the game. right at the end of mop when they did this i can name at least 50+ guilds on my alliance realm and 50+ guilds on my horde realm that died and at least 90% of the players in these guilds /loggedforlife because i never seen any of them since.
10 man guilds were the bread and butter of wow. they far exceeded the number of 25 man guilds 10 fold. they were tight knit. close. and family. when blizzard deleted them most of them instantly died, others slowly died, some went on to “find more” players which turned out to be toxic elites and those guilds also died.
if they were to bring back 10 man in the form of mythic it is too little to late. those 10 man guild players are long gone.
True, however that’s min/max the fun part of the game for players,maybe as mentioned by Wumba on his council post the raid size should be 20M for Hall of fame and then change to flex since Devs already balance Normal/Hero around 10-30 man.
I know a static number brings fights well tuned but also diminish a lot of groups from this content, I’d prefer that some cores exploit the fact that a boss is easier with 16 players compared to 20 that excluding a lot of groups that have to reclute players or bench players to do mythic.
But that would cause just that, if you make it easier with 16 then a core of 20 would have to bench 4 players because well that’s how min/maxing works.
Not all cores bench players just to do min/max, I understand your point but there’s a lot of guilds that handle heroic but can’t try mythic due to this limitation.
not really the point, people would do it in mass. You forget that wow players love to min/max and mythic raiders are the one that will do it the most at all cost.
And yes I understand this might limit guilds but like I said the cost is heavier than the reward. I just don’t believe flex mythic works, they might as well remove mythic if they don’t want a fixed difficulty.
I would argue that the difficulty requires min/maxing. Players would figure out the optimal number and that would become the new static for that tier. Then next tier it would change, maybe 13 is the new best number, and you’d have roster adjustment problems again.
We were told many times by forum posters that raiding is more epic when participation is minimized. That having too many of the wrong people being able to access raids meant it devalued it for others. Shadowlands has certainly minimized participation in raiding.
It wouldn’t even necessarily be consistent for a whole tier – each boss could potentially have a different optimal headcount. So then the people who will be needed for the next boss have to sit through raid night in case the current boss gets killed and then they will be able to play.
Extreme difficulty causes extreme problems. It’s like that in ultra high keys too.
i would like to see the raids grow a little more, especially with the additions of new classes and races over the years. I think 30 is a good immediate improvement, slowly growing to 40-50.
I like that idea, go big or go home. Am I right?
But yea I just wouldn’t sacrifice a content for another, if they want to make 40-50 man content then just make sure it’s fun with 40-50 people.