it’s the truth like it or not
edit: meant to reply to Diercruxx
5% is what they aim for.
Yes. Screw it, you keep bringing it up when it isnt the same and you want to hear something specific so make your argument.
No its not, its not even remotely close to being the same.
No it wasnt. 2h needed a legendary just to compete.
No you didnt, the spec still has its problems for 2h even if you limit loot tables.
Deal with being 20% behind as a 2h then and let Frost continue as it was designed, a DW spec.
And that tuning knob is pretty much maxxed out. They cant increase the number of procs with it anymore since its already a 1-1. If 2h gets an auto crit it gets a KM. And they arent going to push Obliterate any further.
Then remove the Obliterate % because that is your 2nd runeforge. I dont know why people have an issue with understanding this when Blizzard said its 2h 2nd runeforge when they brought it back.
Wrong, sometimes things just cant be done.
Nothing of the sort is being taken away. 2h plays like DW specs already just worse. So you arent losing some specific type of playstyle. You are just holding onto something that isnt worth holding onto for the sake of “my choice though”. Well either live with 2h being worse like SMF players have to do, or just fix it for everyone and at least you can have the look you want with the performance of everyone else.
Thinking anything and everything is possible people just need to do their job is hilarious to me.
Instead of trying to get things to a point of 1-1, why is it that people always go way over the top? Lets give 2h a set it and forget it aoe RI application… yeah how about no?
Its not, you guys just dont see MotFW to be the runeforge that it actually is.
What? DW could apply RI in an area with Frostscythe until Frostscythe was basically killed.
Again, that’s completely beside the point.
There are feasible ways to have more than one runeforge, most notably the torghast power (an example already provided). This has been deployed in the game, already. There is no such “code limitation” to effectively having multiple effects on or with a weapon set/item and if there was unique effect items and or tw tinker slots would not be feasible (and clearly are).
I’ve provided examples, the both of you just continue to say “but MaH cOdE, iS bEeN 20 yEarS lIkE tHIs”, with no factual evidence or proof any such limitation exists (and has already been proven incorrect). Nor do either of you have access to or knowledge of the code the game runs on, or have the ability to have a dev comment on the matter.
For the fifth time, and TLDR, it is absolutely possible to deploy multi runeforge for 2h.
After the 5h time providing no actual evidence, of course my patience is going to be thin after repetitively explaining neither of you have no argument or proof.
Either way this has been a colossal waste of time.
You’re still not listening. But okay.
Like dude. I get it. You want a Runeforge as a buff. Yes. It’s possible to effectively deploy multiple runeforges for 2-handers thanks to it.
My case: I just want Remorseless Winter to apply Razorice for 2-handers and continue using Might of the Frozen Waste as a both a tuning knob and something that would make that weapon choice have different strengths.
I so wish to provide you a code and a programming lesson of how this actually works but since WoW is a closed source I can’t really show you how it works.
For someone who think this discussion is a “colossal waste of time”, you seem to enjoy being mad at people here…
No you didn’t… and you kept mentioning tinker slots. I will say this again:
Tinker slot is a form of Item Enhancement.
Enchantment is a form of Item Enhancement.
Armor Kit is a form of Item Enhancement.
Gem Socketing is a form of Item Enhancement.
Embellishment is a form of Item Enhancement.
You CAN have multiple different Item Enhancements in one item. But you CANNOT have more than one of the same Item Enhancement in one item. That’s just how the game works.
But since you want Runeforge as a buff. Fine by me.
I just want MotFW to make RW apply RI when wielding 2-hander.
Because, generally, the people that want to play 2h just want to play Wrath/Cata Frost, not the iteration that Blizzard has been designing over the last 10 years. They want Obliterate (and really, only Obliterate) to do everything. Maybe sometimes Frost Strike but never Howling Blast or Remorseless, those just exist to facilitate harder or cleaving Obliterates at best in their world.
Anyone that’s still arguing for 2h Frost to get something that isn’t one of the numerous normalization ideas that have been posted on these forms that don’t involve just adding Razorice, more Obliterate damage, and/or more of X for 2h only, at this point is trolling or just wants to relive 2008/9 and needs to move on.
I’m honestly surprised you’ve been posting here for this long.
You are over complicating the design by proposing stuff like this. You’re missing the point entirely.
When you add stuff like what you suggest, it adds additional points of tuning that detract from dev time when you now have to account for balancing between two weapon types.
You make things more complicated, require more work, and pull away focus on things that could actually make the spec more interesting and or enjoyable because of some silly 2h vs DW bull.
You’re just adding to a bigger mess and solving nothing.
And those are examples. Honestly, from what I’ve seen you post you’re a nice person, but you are incredibly thick headed in sticking to your non-argument.
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What? Just make it so that MotFW allows RW to apply RI. It’s a simple passive change for just two abilities under weapon condition like MotFW already does.
As a matter of fact, I would argue that RW applying RI when wielding 2-handed would make it stronger than an extra Runeforge especially in multitarget settings as well as faster RI ramping. It would make Shatter Line a very interesting pick for 2-handed.
Unlike IDT and The Long Winter that naturally favors DW because of how fast they attack…
Ultimately, you can’t balance the two weapon choices at this point. So might as well embrace the difference and stick to each of their strengths. I just think that MotFW increasing the damage of one ability isn’t good enough anymore.
MotFW should:
- Remorseless Winter applying Razorice for faster debuff application compared to Dual Wield. A very unique strength to 2-handers for once as DW has natural damage scaling thanks to an extra runeforge and Unholy Bond.
- Frost Strike costing 5 Runic Power Less. I… don’t understand why it costs 30 RP now from 25 but I really wish every one of us have a bit of an agency over the cost of this thing.
- Keep the Obliterate Damage and the AA Crit procing KM and maybe IDT.
- Maybe it should also increase the damage of Frostscythe?
All those bullets above are spitballing ideas that ultimately benefit the class. As for balancing? It’s hard. But hey, I think that’s part of the fun. Fun precedes balance over any video game and I just think it would be nice if Remorseless Winter have a bit of a place for 2-handers and maybe… eventually…
People arguing between the two is pretty much their own fault at this point and isn’t any different from different specialization and hero talents. I don’t think one should be taken away because of balance and that is a recipe for a very stale game.
Personally, I don’t really care and don’t think it’s a big of a problem but it is what it is. 
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To ignore someone, click on their name, select View Activity, and to the right hand side of your screen you will see a drop down that says “Normal” right above “View Profile”. Click “Normal” and select “Ignored”. 
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I only like 2 handers because I don’t like the Breath Build at all. But like if DW is good or better for the Obliterate build I’d use them. I honestly don’t care which weapon type is better I’ll use either or. I just hate the Breath Build lol.
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I’d balance everything around 2h. Allow all 2h for all 3 specs to have 2 runeforges and then let us transmog or 2h into 2 1h’s.
One item, two weapons. Just like the Legion artifacts.
That way you wouldn’t need to farm multiple weapons either.
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So a nerf to playstyle? No thanks.
Absolutely 0 reason for this to happen under your balance around 2h. That would mean there would no longer be any need for 2 runeforges not to mention that you would have to change the enchanting system for this to give people the choice.
Ultimately you want this because you dont want to get 2 weapons which you shouldnt design stuff around laziness. People talk about Blizzard being lazy and not wanting to do the work, but 2h being added to the loot table made getting 2 1h weapons an absolutely pain.
So no. No supporting laziness, no supporting a playstyle nerf through getting less of everything, and no to the 2 runeforges because that would mean you could just put 2 enchants on a 2h weapon. That means fury would have 4 enchants… yeah no.
DK’s don’t have a spec called Fury my guy…
I didn’t say enchants, I said runeforges, and I specifically said for the 3 DK specs.
I said you balance it around 2H. I didn’t say the gameplay of 2H couldn’t be tweaked a bit to reflect the change. I never said it has to stay the slow 2H play style. I simply said that we would only have one system to balance it around.
So you disagree with the Legion artifact system of allowing us to equip 1 item and get 2 weapons out of it? It’s already been done, and it was a success. (Leveling the artifact aside)
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In Nax WOTLK original, diseaseless blood was top dmg for DKs
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Why cant people you know… read. 2 runeforges on a weapon means they would have to change the enchanting system to allow 2 enchants per 2h weapon. That means fury gets 4 enchants my guy.
They are the same thing, its just one is free.
Yes, that means a nerf to playstyle.
Then why bother if you are going to attempt to make 2h like DW? Just continue with DW.
The fact is that it would have to because 2h doesnt function like DW that people are finally starting to see even though I explained it over 2 expansions ago.
Which would mean a nerf in playstyle.
The Legion artifact system was a 1 off system. If you want to change the system where if you get 1 1h and it applies to both weapon slots then ask for that instead of saying remove DW entirely. Thats not what you suggested though, you suggested to remove the better weapon set and replace it with something inferior and attempt to replicate what DW has. Thats not an option.
No it wasnt.
If all specs can have 2 enchants baseline, may as well just delete FC and bake the power into abilities base line.
I like runeforge diversity as a class design element. Atm FC is just the strongest, so is taken by default by everyone. I think adding some new runeforges with specific powers like mortal strike for PvP would be good. But some of the existing ones like apocalypse or sanguination could use a buff to make them more competitive. Making them unique so they have strengths/synergies with certain builds.
And while we are at it, would love to see a DK mount that has a runeforge on it so we can update them on the fly.
So much pointless talk in here about “well frost was designed like this, and DW does that”, ignoring the fact that design can change. Imagine if abilities only hit with main hand by design. Would we just say “oh well thats just the design”, or would we ask for abilities to hit with both weapons. Ignoring the normalised weapon dps part of the equation (which was a design choice that was changed from weapon hit damage because slower weapons used to be stronger because of it) Frost strike hits for 99% AP with 2h and DW hits 69% for MH and 69/2% for OH. So by design DW hits harder overall with 104% AP vs 2h 99% AP. Personally this makes no sense to me as I think DW should hit for around 75% of what 2h does, but it was a design choice. It also could be changed to dramatically swing the performance of both weapon types.
My point is, tuning is flexible. Arguments about what is performing better now (or 15 years ago) isn’t an argument for how we want the spec to perform moving forward.
I’d love a move to focus on 2h frost, but acknowledge that as much as I love 2h frost there are others that love DW frost just as much. We should aim for a future that accommodates both, because more player choice is the best outcome.
5 Likes
Runeforges are Enchantments, taking the same spot as those from the enchanting profession and using the same systems.
What you would want is a way to give an enhancement of a different type so that only DK’s could get it, and only be linked to two handed weapons or you end up with 4 of them on DWs.
Except, that isn’t what it was. We all equipped a single item, that then showed up as either a two handed weapon, or a one handed weapon with a spec appropriate off hand (shield/icon/other weapon).
It’s why Legion is it’s own category in the transmog menu that overwrites your current weapon mog, while version of the equipment is also in it’s proper normal slot (ie, Blades showing up in one handed swords) but aren’t able to overwrite your selection.
Hot take: I think FC should be either removed, baked in or make other Runeforges more interesting or competitive.
It’s too good and always been too good.
… and why is Rune of Apocalypse still bad while they removed Rune of Hysteria thanks to BoS users leaving my Blood DK to suffer with her RP economy!?
Not that I struggled with RP Economy as BDK but the extra RP I get as well as max RP were very nice.
Such a shame that it is gone now… 
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After playing around with 2 handed Frost and Dual Wield frost… There’s no reason to go 2 handed unless you just like the look better, because DW is just better for Obliterate atm.
The culprit is the designing around auto attacks.
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Except it hasnt changed, you guys want it to change. There is a difference. Blizzard even states that the preferred weapons are 2 weapons within the game.
It would kill DW. Goes to show you really dont understand DW.
We would be saying thats the design, and DW would have never happened because you lose out on 25% of ability damage. You wouldnt be asking for it to hit with both weapons.
This tired played out nonsense. This is only true when you compare 1 1h to 1 2h. This argument goes out the window when the abilities hit with both weapons because during this time DW hit as hard or harder than 2h.
Wrong. This goes to show that you dont actually understand how DW works lol. So in actuality with your numbers, it would be 99% with a 2h and 69%+(69/2) which = 103%. You are a magnitude off. Just like when it was weapon damage, 1h weapons were about 75% of a 2h and then the offhand made up another 25% without nerves of cold steel.
Because you havent done a shred of research on this or how it used to be. Its an assumption and parroting others while saying things like “Kelliste doesnt know what they are talking about” when you show your hand like this in actually not knowing what you are talking about in this regard.
Yes, but the mechanics dont change.
Exactly, its how you want the spec to be, who cares about precedent and how it currently is designed, Blizzard should just change the design based on what you want. The fact of the matter is 2h actually drove people away from the spec and now that they actually continued with the spec design (which 2h players dont like) the representation has went up drastically.
Of course you would, you dont like Frost. There is no other explanation for this other than you played sub par, you dont like that it was sub par, and now you want DW players to suffer because you actually lack the knowledge of how DW works even after it has been explained not only by me but by Biceps, you know that person that people hold in high regard?
No we shouldnt. There are other specs that you can play that give the playstyle that you want.
No its not and you will never have actual player choice because players make the choice for you, whatever is best is what they want you to play.
Players will just go to the next best thing. Unless all runeforges beat out enchants then a +primary stat increase enchant will be the go to.
You should only really be using DS once every 5 seconds. Spamming it doesnt do anything anymore because damage instances only count once towards DS healing.
As a very casual player, I don’t care what they do with the spec necessarily, but I would like to be able to target my preferred weapons. It sucks to prefer DW and get 2h weapons shoved down my throat because there’s no way to loot spec for 1h weapons specifically, especially when the spec and hero talents need to change considerably depending on weapon type (as far as I can tell, anyway).
IDK much about theory crafting and all of that, and I don’t min-max or play difficult content, so the difference between DW and 2h is only about playstyle and what I’m better at. But this one thing irritates me to no end and just makes me want to pick a different main, despite playing the same DK character as my main since early 2010.
Anyway, just plunking this thought here for the very minimal chance that some dev might care. Yes, I know that’s a very slim chance.
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