Frost and 2h vs dual weild

I’ve done one small mod for Rimworld in C#, and a few Json mods for Stardew and some of that was more complicated then I though it would be. So much more respect for people who do that at a high level for a living.

Fragging comma’s man. It’s always a comma

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No. No it’s always a Semicolon.

As for the eldritch spaghetti that is old WoW code.
Yes a nightmare. But there are ways around it.

Runeforging deserves a profession level update anyway.

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They could please so many people with open transmog, and using the glyph system. Honestly, i love trying new things, so a 4th spec for everyone would be fun (ignoring the balancing nightmare). I guess there would end up being the blood DPS wanting their spec as well, lol. I could definitely think of a new spec for most classes, though. Barring that, transmog/glyphs need some love.

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And Acclimation in certain fights, and the defensive vs. small hits (adds, dungeons), and —in dungeons— the ability to persistently chain kite (keeping one enemy in range to supply you with a Rune Strike target, with the rest dragging behind with threat enough from Howling Blasts and DoTs to keep them on you with extremely little damage taken).

“All it really had was armor” only to the extent that ‘all Blood really had was parry’.

There is so much wrong here its really not worth responding to.

Acclimation wasnt that great. Niche at best and Blood had more than enough to cover for what is basically good for tick damage.

Small hits didnt matter to the DK at all overall because their armor was still high.

If you were chain kiting in dungeons you were doing it wrong. Not only did you want to create death balls for your dps to dps everything down, if you had to kite in those heroics you were doing something severely wrong.

That is all the spec provided. Armor. Toughness and Unbreakable armor. Toughness was picked up by everyone though. Blood has no passive stat increase for defensives and you really wanted to push stam with Blood due to the nature of Death Strike, Rune Tap, Vampiric Blood and Mark of Blood. The higher your stamina the better these things would perform. Parry was for spell deflection where you got a chance equal to your parry to reduce a direct damage spell by 15%.

Blood was the tank spec while Frost was really for just going into heroics without really having to change your spec so long as you had a tank set of gear that had 535 defense on it.

It would be nice if people actually verified the information they are presenting before presenting it.

Full breakdown, frost had:
Slow effect duration reduction and yet more armor stacking
Lichborn (same as now)
Counter cost reduction
Melee attack hit chance reduction
AoE 10 second stun CC
Unbreakable armor (big armor boost)
Acclimation

Blood had:
Self heal with blood rune
Spell parry
Self heal when target enemy hits a person
Bloodworms
Max health and healing received boost
low on health damage reduction

And for giggles unholy had:
Increase dodge chance
Magic damage reduction
AMZ
Bone shield

Frost was all about reduction and mitigation, which is what tanks did

Blood was all about self sustaining, which worked well for either tank or dps and was a unique playstyle no class at the time had, making it attractive for tanks looking for a new style.

Protection warriors and paladins, and bears already did damage reduction and mitigation, but a spec that could due leeching self sustain rather then mitigation, new hotness!

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The glory days of stacking ArPen on a blood DK. >_> You could do some awful, awful things with that setup.

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Until so overgeared that you could tank through everything on a healer, one still used distinct talents for tanking as Frost vs. dpsing as Frost. And it could generally put out more damage at less net damage taken (yes, including what heals you put out) in Heroics unless, for whatever reason, one refused to ever pull more than just 2-3 mobs at a time (in which case Heart Strike was of course hugely advantaged).

You know, I always wondered why they made frost the dual wield spec instead of unholy when they overhauled the spec design in late wotlk. Sure, frost was the one with the improved dual wield talent, but the original dual wield spec went deeper into unholy than frost, and they explicitly moved howling blast deeper into the frost tree to nerf/kill that spec.

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Toughness

Its not and was a PvP talent. As the tank you werent the one being feared or charmed or slept.

No clue what this means. Unless you mean Endless winter which is just as much of a dps talent so its not counted.

Frigid Dreadplate

Not used in pve content and not actually a stun.

And a DPS increase.

So out of all the things you listed, there are 4 tanking talents for frost. Im surprised you didnt throw in Chillblains just to try to skew the numbers more.

Rune Tap… missing the talent improved rune tap? If you are going to give the full breakdown then this stuff is important. It increased Rune Tap heal by 100%.

Spell Deflection which gave a chance based on your parry rating to reduce direct damage spells by 15%.

Mark of Blood

Vampiric Touch

You missed

Blade Barrier - 5% flat damage reduction for 10 seconds after your blood runes are on CD (should be up 100% of the time)
Vendetta - heal on enemy death
Veteran of the Third War - stam increase if you want to count Endless Winter
Improved Blood Presence - heal while in other presences
Improved Death Strike - increases the healing by 50%
Will of the Necropolis - damage reduction at or below 35% health along with reducing the damage of the ability that puts you at 35% health.

I even ignored Bloodworms here.

There is far more in the Blood tree for tanking when you actually do a full breakdown on the specs.

Also dont underestimate the power of having a ghoul for tanking. One of the reasons why people would solo as Unholy instead of Blood or Frost. Having another targetable body was extremely powerful because mechanics would be directed towards the ghoul instead of you. This is how people did the Battered Hilt farm. The skeletons would target your ghoul with the stun instead of you. If there was no one else then the mechanic would go on the tank.

Frost was about reducing physical damage though higher armor.

And damage reduction you just missed a lot of it, like a LOT of it.

Blood was insanely easy to play and unholy ACTUALLY had as much healing from Death Strike or more than blood. If we really want to get into the thick of it, Ebon Plaguebringer is also a tank talent because it increased the heal of Death Strike by 50%. Reaping is also a tank talent because it increased the amount of Death Strikes that could be used by 1 every other rune rotation. So one rotation it could heal for 30% of your max health and the next rune rotation for 45% of your max health while Blood at best could only do 30% every single rune rotation without Vamp Blood.

Blood did both, thats why it was used as primarily a tank.

You could do awful things as a prot paladin as well. Stacking strength and haste with crit after was absolutely devestating. Haste increased the damage of Hammer of the Righteous because it scaled with weapon dps instead of weapon damage and haste directly increased weapon dps. Not to mention it was all magic damage. Prot warrior could 1-2 shot people with shield slam.

Just because you could stack armor pen and spam heart strike doesnt mean it was great. It was low man on the totem pole even with SM.

Thats why.

And gargoyle. They moved both of those because they were extremely powerful for mid tier talents. You went DW because 2h didnt provide anything of value to that build. Its not because DW fit unholy because the build went slightly further into the unholy tree.

Frost housed the DW talents and the spec went from a mess to something more stable. No real reason you would want to use Obliterate at all because it didnt trigger Rime, didnt interact with Killing Machine… Frost had no real identity. It looked thrown together with no real direction until 3.2 came along. The spec made absolutely no sense even when you look at it from a 2h Obliterate standpoint. Like when would you actually want to use Icy Touch to try to trigger Rime for free Howling Blasts? It would be during a KM proc most likely but then Frost Strike and Howling Blast would be on a higher priority. So rime was kind of… half a talent. Blizzard had an idea which looked to be more spell focused with DW, but it just didnt work.

What are you on about? The proof is that it has already been done whether or not it’s directly through enchants. Like legitimate, factual proof that one way or another you can have multiple runeforges.

You’ve got nothing to prove otherwise, stop being a moron.

I love seeing toxic people attacking each other. Really makes your criticism against me completely worthless lol.

So you want Runeforge as a buff for 2-handers. Got it.

I was never against this and yet you called me names. :frowning:

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I thought it was fairly obvious, the means through which it’s implemented is irrelevant as long as you can normalize the number of runeforges between weapon types for frost.

The both of you going on about how it can’t be done was what is/was ridiculous.

Please who?? I absolutely DO NOT want a transmog option. Its dumb and lazy.

Going to repeat myself:

DW and 2h can be balanced to be within a few percent of each other. Blizzard just has to do it.

Getting rid of one or the other is as stupid as getting rid of UHDK or FDK because one is better than the other. Those specs will never be perfectly balanced against each other. Which is fine. Same for 2h vs DW.

Taking away player choice is never a good option. It is silly players have such a warped take on 2h/dw.

Might as well delete Frost mage from the game because they are far behind Fury warriors. OR, blizzard can do their job.

Just put Fallen Crusader on MotFW and buff or nerf Obliterate damage as need. I like 2h obliterates hitting harder. They have a tuning knob. They just need to use it.

Edit:
Why are people feeding the toll?

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And it is according to people on these forums yet its not good enough or these things wouldnt keep getting made and people saying “2h needs this, 2h needs that”.

Frost DK having to be balanced against itself and other specs is different than spec v spec tuning.

Both of these cant happen because MotFW is the 2nd runeforge for 2h.

Making 2h a transmog option is not taking away player choice. In fact it is opening up the ways that you can play the class because it can then be designed that way without having to try to overcome the reasons why 2h was removed in the first place. If the goal is to give 2h the things that DW has then you are just playing DW at that point and 2h should just become a transmog option. I do not know why people like you are against it while calling those that see this obvious truth trolls.

The one trolling would be you because you are actively going against a permanent fix.

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No, he’s got a point. Code for enchants are as old as 2006. What you and a few people want is the Torghast buff version, which is pretty much a very shoddy DIY way of going about it.

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Except for no one here can comment on whether or not it can actually be coded as a second enchant. So, exhaustingly, no. None of us are blizzard devs, an armchair code expert has no say on whether or not it can be done. And the fact of the matter that remains, there are already ways to achieve the end result regardless.

How many brick walls must I reply to…

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MotFW is the thing. Its just 2h players want to keep MotFW as is while also gaining a 2nd runeforge which isnt going to happen.

Take your pick
2nd runeforge
or
Obliterate % damage increase.

You cant have everything if 2h players aim is parity, but I think people dont want parity and they actually want 2h to be better than DW to kill DW off. If this isnt the case then why are so many people against the actual solution of just making 2h a transmog option?

Well, the point was: You can’t have two runeforges in one weapon. Elias, you can’t have two enchantments in one item. The game just doesn’t work that way.

You can have a Runeforge as a buff… and it just seems like you would like it that way. So… :dracthyr_shrug:

To me, that’s not a bad solution either. I prefer RW applying RI for 2-handers but that’s just me.

You don’t have to insult people you disagree with, you know. :pensive:

And… uhm… maybe if you provide an example of an item that has two enchantments (not enhancements). Then we can just assume less that and more possibilities are up in the air.

Don’t have to. But just a food for thought.

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