Frost and 2h vs dual weild

Classes Death Knight
81

Classic was all about 40 people without TeamSpeak (for most people) working together to accomplish a common goal. In classic we didn’t even have raid wide DPS meters for the most part. I had a personal DPS meter in Blackwing Lair and that was the only add-on I had. When we first did Molten Core we didn’t even have that. The first supper popular add-on I think anyone can remember was probably Decursive. This was made because of how hard it was to decurse and entire raid back then. Then the personal DPS meter came after that.

Some people had DBM to my understanding by Naxx and the world first people might have had that. But I think BWL was the first time I was in a guild that had TS. When we did MC it was hard to orchestrate 40 people with typing alone. I mean just try and do Baron Geddon just by typing alone. Seems easy but when you got nearly 40 people stacked on a single spot and just one person has Living Bomb placed on them it’s quite hard to get that those people to see it in all the chat flying by. Especially if they were the Brazilians which we had many that played with us back then.

How many raids back then did nearly 1/4 of the raid not even speak English? It was a real mess and so no one cared about min / max. Back then almost every good guild the way you got in was you did dungeons. If you could listen to instruction and do what they said, and not pull threat, that was basically how you got into a good guild. It was the only real requirements and basically the only things that mattered.

From what I can find Sims first started in WotLK, but didn’t become mainstream till MoP. Land Soul’s spread sheet is what most people used back then. RAWR is what most people used at first, at least I remember that. GScore was the thing in WotLK that and Carbonite, But for myself I don’t think I really heard of SimCraft till late Cata or MoP.

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82

And it isnt 2009 and you have absolutely nothing to back up Blood DPS being popular. Its just anecdotal. We can however use classic as a means to look to see what the intended design was. I hardly seen anyone playing Blood DPS. There was 1 person that I remember playing it. Thats it. Pugs didnt have them, guild runs didnt have them, weekly raids didnt have them, dungeons didnt have them.

Players were still looking for the best options. They just didnt have the simming programs to back any of it up. It was theorycrafting then in game testing.

You absolutely can because it was the game as it was back then outside of a very few things like hand of reckoning being in rets rotation when it wasnt originally due to the spec being balanced around a tier set they didnt have access to, and M+ lite dungeons.

The fact of the matter is Blood was primarily a tank spec in wrath that could dps. If you liked blood, cool. Doesnt really mean anything though in terms of its primary function and the same goes for Unholy and Frost. Unholy was used to solo, Frost tanks were used in dungeons because of snap agro because threat was still a thing and many people had issues with it. Howling Blast addressed aoe threat. I tanked as Frost, but im not about to go against reality which was that Frost was primarily a dps spec.

The players really arent that different. The tools just werent there yet. People said go to Elitistjerks to get the best builds. though its not like it was hard to figure out the best build if you just read your talents.

The majority of WoW players, or those that want to play WoW but dont, arent min/max centric. If boss dies most people just dont care. The issue is when people make a claim that can be easily verified like “Frost was the tank spec”, its just not true.

I really do not understand how people can be on these forums and make claims when we have the largest library of information at our fingertips and things can be verified. “I do better than people higher ilvl than me” no you dont, at least not good players you done. If you play baseball against a bunch of children and beat them, it doesnt mean you are a good baseball player.

Absolutely no one said you couldnt do keys with a 2h, you made it sound like it was the best option and a “look at me I did better than DW with a 2h!”. But if we look at where these specs you were playing with fall compared to Frost, you should be beating these other classes. Frost is one of the BEST M+ specs out there right now. It doesnt change the fact that DW performs better. Again, you made it sound like you were the best player around and 2h was clearly the better option because you were beating what everyone considers the best with a lower ilvl and 2h. You know exactly what you were doing.

And again, absolutely NO ONE said 2h couldnt do something or you shouldnt play it. You want to play something that is worse, by all means go for it.

83

Why do you feel the need to just attack someone not talking to you? He was responding to me, not you. You got some real issues man. No he didn’t make it sound like it was the best option, over an over he said he sims 3.5% lower than DW. He said he did just fine in a dungeon. You’re making up stuff just to attack someone for something he never said or suggested

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84

It depends on what part of wrath you speak of. Originally (first part with Naxx) I played UH dps in a top 50 guild then. But the very top DK dps were diseaseless blood spec. Really it blew my mind too but it was just an efficient way to get all the big 2h swings, DRW, and passive talents and not waste runes on disease enablers. That was short lived though.

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85

Its a public forum. Also, didnt you reply to me even though I wasnt talking to you? Oh yes you did and you came to the conclusion that I was forcing people to play the way I like to play it which is just completely nonsensical because 2h and DW play basically exactly the same.

And I wasnt talking to you initially yet you stuck your nose in it. Dont get on my case when you do the same thing, and its not like you 2 havent been talking about me expecting me to not defend myself.

No I dont.

Yes he did.

So? And he said he beats out DW players that have a higher ilvl than him. So he is either saying that 2h is better, or hes saying that his information shouldnt be trusted because he plays with worse players.

Again… so what? Again its the way he framed the information.

No im not, you are literally making stuff up about me and then trying to say I have issues when you are lying about me. Constantly. Where did I say the things you claimed I said? Oh… thats right… YOU MADE THEM UP.

I took what Tofurious said, that you brought up claiming things about him and I looked it up.

  1. He should be doing better than the specs he was doing these keys with since they are performing worse than Frost overall.
  2. When you look at the numbers when you put him against other players at the same ilvl, hes a below average player.
  3. This guy has been talking about me for years so I do not care, if he doesnt want to be looked into he shouldnt have been trying to do that with me. If you do something to others then you should be fine when people check you out. Right?

They werent. Best spec was a hybrid Frost Unholy spec picking up Howling Blast and Gargoyle. I also have absolutely 0 clue why anyone would play Blood without diseases even before 3.2. Diseases were passive damage damage, easy to refresh both diseases with a single rune, increased the damage of heart strike even if it wasnt % based increase at that time. I also cant find anything about this build. Ive looked before, and ive looked now and I cant find a single thing about it.

All the things you listed would have had bigger damage with diseases on the target, it just wasnt % based and a flat damage increase per disease for heart strike. Looking through changelogs, older talent trees, no clue why anyone would play diseaseless blood. Nothing says “ohhh thats what is creating the damage” and I cant find a change that would indicate that it was killed.

You can find the Frost Unholy howling blast gargoyle build though.

86

Just ignore them. They are lost, and feel personally attacked if anyone suggests 2h can be competitive. They tried to discredit me by linking a crappy log that I didn’t even know was being recorded and now trying to backpedal the narrative because I showed proof I’m not a bottom-tier player like they seemingly are.

DW is stronger, as mentioned several times. BUT 2H is competitive in keys specifically which is my main pve content and which was the basis of my original post to you. Frost DK is super strong in m+ atm which defs helps give me a leg up over these other specs, but even compared to other fDKs with higher ilvl running DW I am beating a fair chunk of them. So the gap is close enough that skill can overperform the current tuning.

If you are running m+ for r1 title, best go DW BoS…But for anything below top 1% of key pushers, 2h is fine.

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87

I’d just have two hander for all the specs. I don’t care for the dual wield look.

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88

After doing a lot of testing and playing around the past couple weeks, dw is unfortunately better. But dps wise its not a huge difference numberwise. Feel wise though dw def has the edge, you just get more km procs and more icy death torrent procs. Sometimes with 2h you can get some really high numbers, but most of the time the rng is going to screw you. And most of the time it will, if you run numbers on raidbots I think it gives you the best possible scenario. Our spec is pretty rng dependant and it amplifies with 2h since you are going to get halfish the chances to proc the things

I think 2h just needs something tweaked a little bit to make it even. Maybe even something as simple as making murderous efficiency 50% with a 2h instead or something like that would make it even. Idk though. Maybe even just a slight increase to the motfw would do it as well.

I hope they do something tho, really dislike being forced into dw again. No shade if you like it, but for me I want to use my cool lego tmogs. Maybe if they’d let us tmog the warglaives I’d be a little more into it.

Personally I’m not gonna be surprised to see icy death torrent nerfs in the future.

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89

Exactly. If the boss died, no one cared. I used recount to track my progression/ test my rotation, but i imagine most people didn’t have it.

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This person has nothing outside of this game, and it’s pretty obvious the way they pour their efforts into knowing the most. I would have blocked them years ago, but it is pretty interesting to see a person of this calibur pick fights with, literally, everyone.

Its like watching someone with a 90 IQ do brain surgery on themselves. You know its going to be bad, but you don’t really like the person, so you just continue to let them cut, amazed that they have removed chunks. Not the ones they wanted, but definitely chunks.

They’re so easy to manipulate, too. Not smart, just taking bait left and right. It is 100% guaranteed that whoever is behind the screen refuses to let a comment go unanswered.

2 Likes
91

Wrong.

You didnt show that. You did the same thing you were trying to do before, you used worse performing specs this time while Frost is one of the best specs for M+. You also arent 3% behind in those of the same ilvl. You are over 26% behind those of your same ilvl.

Is it? Is being over 26% behind others of the same ilvl and spec competitive?

Exactly what I said but “im a liar” apparently.

And there it is again. No you arent unless those players are really bad because you are over 26% behind DW players in M+.

Well, its not unless DW players sit on their hands. If you are claiming to be good while being 26% behind others of a similar ilvl, then those players are either building their character severely wrong or they are just sitting on their hands.

2h, can be used, no one said it couldnt. But thats like saying 2h could be used in Wrath even though it was garbage that was spit on and fire. It was horrible in terms of damage output. 26% behind when Blizzard aims for 5% difference might as well be the pacific ocean to the WoW playerbase.

92

These posts are pretty good evidence that transmog would solve everything.

What, are you saying to say knowledge is bad or something? Seriously?

No, not anyone and you are trying to say that giving accurate information is somehow picking fights with everyone.

This is all it comes down to with people like you. Its a bias and you are going to see things as you want to see them because you dont like that person. You arent objective in your reasoning but you think you are which is absolutely hilarious.

So not only are you admitting to trolling, you are just flat out insulting others too? Im also going to either defend myself from toxic people like you, give accurate information, or respond to those that respond to me.

Your post here is just 100% worthless. It does absolutely nothing and its posts like yours that get threads shut down because of your hatred towards others and your dishonesty. But you still blame me for it because you cant be at fault at all right?

94

We’ve been over this in a similar thread, there are already work arounds they’ve used for doing this (torghast gave us all the runeforges), it’s a non-issue.

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Buffs are not enchants. That’s the point. The system is not designed for you to pick a second rune and enchant the weapon like we currently do through our runeforge system. Giving you a permanent passive buff via talent is what they would have to do, and is what they have done with the mentioned Torghast and talents.

96

Moot point, 2 runeforges is completely possible at this point in the game from a technical standpoint.

What is so hard to understand about that? Why do you think adding more talents that add additional discrepancies isn’t going to consistently lead to imbalance between the two weapon types, as history proves to be true?

Until you remove weapon type discrepancies, uncouple spec mechanics from weapon type/attack speed, or complete remove one weapon type, adding additional talents to balance one over the other is factually the wrong and or worse solution. This argument between 2h/dw will go in until the end of time until weapon choice is irrelevant.

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I love ya, Kell. You keep debate alive. Try not to be so mean, lol. One thing no one can take away from you is the fact that you care about the class, and your comments are meant to display your idea of perfection. We always need a devil’s advocate, willing, or not.

98

This you?

No, not perfection. Chasing perfection is always going to end in failure. Chasing the truth and accuracy, absolutely.

The truth can be seen as the devils advocate of lies. You arent actually on the side you think it is.

99

You’re right, lol, i should take my own advice. It was more sarcastic a hole in my head than in text. I didn’t mean to say you werent smart in general. I do “not smart” things more than i would like, but i wouldn’t consider myself dumb (same as with my comment about you).

You are fairly easy to manipulate, i hate to say. It’s like summoning beatlejuice. I don’t say this to be mean, but to make you a more powerful sith… er DK. I like joking with you, mostly because i know you’ll keep the conversation going.

I have also agreed with, and defended you in the past from time to time, so i don’t want you to think of me as an enemy. Just the middle ground everyone sees as left or right of their own beliefs. I just like to get you riled up a bit, but you do make fair points sometimes. You do come off as defensive, and i think a lot of people miss your points when that happens.

100

I know.

Thats not what you said.

I know exactly what I am going to respond to, attacks on me and people just saying blatantly false statements that have been debunked time after time not just from myself but countless others over the years.

Except this isnt keeping the conversation going. This was a thread about asking how people would approach the issue of 2h vs DW. Funny how people said no to the transmog option with absolutely nothing showing how it is a bad idea.

You are continuing to make this about ME, you attack me, and then blame me for being defensive. If people made a good faith argument then go for it. But this is about a solution to this idiotic divide that has been happening since SL beta because some people are hurt over 2h being removed 8 years ago.

That ship has sailed.

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I just said not smart to take the bait. That doesn’t mean you aren’t an intelligent person. Ive witnessed your memory of you previous posts from years ago, and i do remeber the debates, though not specific threads. I really didn’t mean to imply you were dumb, it wasn’t my intention, and i hope this is clarified. Tesla trusted the government, everyone does stupid stuff. And we are friends whether you like it or not, lmao. You are the most fun person to follow on the forums.