You make a side-by-side comparison of Baine to Anduin and you wonder why people especially Horde don’t like him…
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Baine forever.
You’re right on many points.
One small thing about himself. It’s really not enough for me after the whole mess that was BfA.
I don’t see it that way, really. Nothing well constructed him my eyes. At best hamfistedt story beats. It’s even more sad Saurfang needed Anudin to realize he had to do something.
The story between him Zekhan, his los that was good. His reactions and all the nonsense around the war and only reacting after Anduin gave him a talk ruined everything for me. I can’t describe how much BFA hurt my view on Saurfang.
You still put the blame on Aethas. But I will take it.
Vol’jin had a choice during MoP. Baine had also a choice.
No, the guard who guarded Baine.
I will allays remember Baine hurting his own people. Sorry freeing Derrek does nothing to make me sympathize with him one bit. There needs to be a lot more.
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No, we want actual characters, not the parody of the usually designed “characters” for children in the 2 - 6 years old age gap -that basically describe the self inserts of this game. If you and likeminded posters want this types of characters, good for you, but don´t make the mistake of believing the rest of us have such poor standards-.
Sure dear, that´s why -as Treng puts it- “honorable” Baine (who btw should know better than anyone considering he´s the racial leader of the people living in Taurajo) decided to put the “approved military target” upon it (even while we Hordies have quest literally depicting the death of civilians and children in the place ffs) and be done with it.
You can blame the writers for awful writting regarding this, and yes, you would be right. Problem is, it ended impacting negatively the narrative tool known as Baine (cause excuse me, but I can´t believe in the “morally good” image of a “character” that continuosly contradicts itself and ends up sending the message killing is bad only when done against the wishes of two well known self inserts (A.K.A. Golden´s pet characters).
Well dear, when you basically concede to being ignorant of the themes and still insisting on narrative plots that don´t exist in favor of your well known non playable race, this is but a given.
If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck…
Dude, after years of retroactive bad writting that sinks more and more his image thanks to bad writting I say this would be wasted resources. Giving him a “cool” moment doesn´t erase the idiotic writting involving him in both Cata and BfA.
Ergo his whole narrative presence? Causae I hope you are aware how a character is “used” in a story basically translates as the impact / weigh the character has on the narrative per se. Characters don´t exist in a vacuum; they exist as part of the tale being told.
And if Baine´s “use” in the story is bad, then guess what this says about the character for the people reading/experiencing the story…
THIS. Please say it harder for the people defending his “outstanding morals”.
THIS too. That´s the most grievous part regarding Baine; cause pre-ToW Jaina was NOT a racial leader; ergo the expectations on her having to value
AND protect the well being of the Humans wasn´t as strong as it is with Baine right now. And when he´s being used in the story in such pathetic way -again, not as a character per se but as an empty narrative voice in off trying to sell the concept "war is bad when done against muh Wrynns and their buddies-, well, the impact is worse. Ergo, why he DOES come out in the story as a perma Anduin / Jaina apologist that will literally ignore war crimes being done around the corner but will sabotage his own people´s wellbeing in favor of these two character´s goals.
Baine appears in the story only to propel Anduin´s and Jaina´s one; not his OWN story.
Dude, he literally acts like a sheep following the actual GOD High King Anduin and GODDESS Jaina, kissing their feet, sending body parts to him and killing anyone in his path to please her, barely having any moment to shine that don´t involve these two characters.
See why some of us rather not continue having to deal with his badly written excuse of self?
Cause we DO know how to read, and a character being sold as the “gooid moral compass” of a faction that did nor say anything regarding civilians being burned to death but literally betrayed/attacked his allies -again- in favor of some rando affiliated to his human buddies IS an insulting oxymoron. It is incoherence incarnated, and a very insulting one if you ask me.
Sure dude, that´s why when he had trouble in Cata the narrative made him reach his Horde buddies (Vol´jin, Saurfang), not Alliance affiliated Jaina.
Opposing people for molesting a dude is an “stronger” moral compass than opposing it for massively killing civilians in a gruesome way, you hear it here first, guys.
Sure dear, specially when he didn´t care over the actual gross crime and only complained over the crime done against the brother of his buddie.
such outstanding moral compass… almost as noble as the moral compass of any modern corrupt politician.
Cause he bend backwards to enrich their characters while causing massive chaos in the Horde narrative, duh.
Dude, Baine only qqed over leaving Saurfang behind. He literally NEVER mentioned Teldrassil.
And Saurfang qqed over killing the civilians, but he was totes ok, with invading and taking prisoners a bunch of civilians -which is a creepy thing to do when we take into account he probably lived through the Concentration Camps-.
Nope, is tied to the reading comprehension skills one has and the biases too.
Wrong, Saurfang´s story is one of ignoring the narrative of WC3 and Vanilla in favor of recycling the same story.
You aware the guy was concious of the perils regarding the Horde since WotLK?? Which makes Sylvanas “fooling him” bad writting per se?
Oh, so interesting to know he wasn´t interested in saving the lives of his own soldiers and left them to die in the attack too!!
How so, by proxy of making the finally extinct or completely dependant on third parties for survival?
There´s a difference between refusing to go to war and refusing to defend one´s own civilians, dude.
THIS. also, the taste / reading comprehension of people defending literary narrative cancer as Anduin… mindboggling.
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So it’s basically Erevien’s style of argumentation, “Whenever a Horde character doesn’t hate an Alliance character above all else, he’s lost. Because Faction should dominate everything!”
I blame Blizzard for the contradicting representation of Jaina’s orders and her behaviour. They let her say that only those who physically resist are to be killed, yet she kills fleeing Sunreavers who clearly do not resist.
I blame Vereesa for using the Situation to further her own political goals and get rid of the Sunreavers.
And I blame Aethas for doing nothing at all to protect his people, but enabled the intrusion. Instead of taking his guards to the Violet Citadel, he could have started an evacuation. He could have prepared himself to face Jaina, to negotiate, hell, do anything. I know that it was an impossible situation since Garrosh had threatened to kill Blood Elves if he didn’t obey, but at this point, the bell was already in Garrosh’s hands, why would he still care about the Sunreavers? Aethas could have tried to protect those who considered him their leader.
Blizzard could have made him look so much more competent. Imagine a desperate Aethas who actually tries to reason with Jaina, taking the full responsibility for the situation and… is ignored by her. It would have been a great opportunity to make people sympathize with this poor guy in an impossible situation and really make him a victim. But what did they do instead?
He struts like a peacock through the Violet Citadel with battle-ready guards and when a furious Jaina demands answers, he plays the snarky sassqueen.
Seriously, when they presented him in Legion as surprise follower for the Order Hall, I facepalmed so hard.
So again: I blame all three of them.
And they both took a while to rise against their Warchief. Vol’jin even waited until he was wounded by an Assassin.
The whiny Bloodelf?
If you want to reduce him to that, fine with me.
But please respect it, when other people see more in him.
I think you should google the meaning of the word “literally”.
Just as I have not mentioned Baine in regards to Teldrassil. 
Invading, fighting and taking prisoners is part of War. That’s why the Horde had a Warchief. Saurfang planned that War on behalf of the Warchief. Occupying and controlling Teldrassil would have given them a hostage for negotiations with the Alliance. That was back then, when Saurfang still believed Sylvanas wanted to do this for the safety of the Horde.
And to individual sympathies and how much one identifies with certain characters. My point is: It’s not necessarily tied to the Factions you play ingame.
No, what exactly are you referring to?
The other leaders did not know about the manabomb. What should he have done in your opinion? Not march with the rest of the Horde?
Again: The Tauren he banned did not want to DEFEND, they wanted to RETALIATE.
Narrative cancer? Anduin? Why, because he also underwent actual character development? Because he has flaws and insecurities?
Where were you when the High King of the Alliance was a self-righteous, nearly invincible Gary Stu with divine buffs from other’s races deities who schooled even Night Elves? 
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Wrong. Very wrong. Why would I then like Carine? Or many other characters that worked with the Alliance / both factions? Or why would I like the Thermore Horde connection?
Yeah, I thought so.
Vol’jin gave his word to Thrall he would guide Garrosh. He hoped he could influence him, that Garrosh would listen to reason. Despite all he wanted to help Garrosh to find his way. Mostly because of his word to Thrall. That’s something very different. I find it also rater respectful.
Ok, you’re out.
That’s what I do.
I said you can like him, never did otherwise. But I will say I see Baine as hurtful to the Tauren when people paint him as something good.
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One Bloodelf is still more worth then 100 Baines.
You said, the story pissed you off as soon as Saurfang talked to Anduin. So I drew that conclusion. The thing is that this whole “Hope”-Theme worked on both sides. Anduin as the future of the Alliance, Zekhan as the future of the Horde.
It was important for Saurfang to see that there are still idealistic young men in both factions who gave them a meaning and followed certain principles, so that he could find new hope that the “cycle of hatred” could one day be broken.
He could not help the Horde for his son’s sake anymore, since Dranosh had perished, so he did it for Zekhan (and even Anduin) - symbolized through the weapons he wielded in the Mak’gora.
True. They could have shown Baine doubt earlier - even for Saurfang, we got a delayed reaction - we didn’t know that it bothered him until the shortstories and the Cinematic. I guess they did not want to bring in too many characters into these cinematics, so Baine played only a minor role in the first half of the campaign.
Seems to happen frequently here 
So just to clarify: You are talking about Magister Hathorel, who did not guard Baine, but was actually waiting for their trap to spring? The very trap with anti-teleport crystals, assisted by Dark Rangers and an Undead Nightelf warden?
Are you talking about that “poor guard”?
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In any logical world the so called heroes would have died from this trap. But Mary Sue powers played their thing and they escaped. Undeserved.
The problem is Anduin and that Saurfang needed to talk with Anduin. Anduin has a very special place in the story and I’m tired of it. It was basically MoP 2.0 all over again.
We had this story already played out and way better in WC3 (and in theory even after Garrosh). Sylvanas and Varian fighting together in the opening of Legion was even such a moment.
I don’t get why they are trying to remake those things but way, way worse and with such a horrible taste for many players. It’s more than pointless.
You don’t have to wonder after your answer.
I meant all of them, but sure him too. I don’t like we were forced to kill them. He did his job. Like all the other guards we murdered to free Baine.
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Seriously? Shall we compare it to the Talanji-Rescue-Scenario in Stormwind in terms of logic and probability? 
No, there is a very important difference.
Varian: "Here I stand, the mighty Godking of the Alliance, Incarnation of Goldrinn and chosen Champion of Elune! Hear me, Horde scum! In my unparalleled wisdom and generosity, I’ll grant you another chance! Uphold honor or I will smite you in my divine justice! To make a point and assure you my dominance, I shall now take out my mighty p* * * s and urinate on all of you."
Anduin: “Yeah, you could have killed me, but hesitated, because you hoped I would stop Sylvanas. But I couldn’t, she was always a few steps ahead of us. I have to try again, but… I need you help. Oh, and take my sword, I trust you will do the right thing.”
Yeah, that was an emotional rollercoaster. They very moment Varian acknowledged that he had learned something and was starting to use his brain, when I started to feel sympathy for him, I knew they would kill him off quickly.
There’s only so much you can to with a Chuck Norris-cliché turned mortal.
But I think they really missed out on a epilogue after SoO. THAT would have been the moment to discuss about the structure and complicated history of the horde, to make changes and prevent another Garrosh. But sadly they didn’t, because they wanted to introduce us to… a bad parody of the Horde in AU-Draenor. >_>
That part I totally understand! And Blizzard does too.
War is ugly. That’s why I sympathize with characters like Baine, Velen or the Pandaren in general. Blizzard has a difficult job in that regard:
On one hand, they need to reignite the “Faction-Pride”, Horde vs. Alliance, where you as a player want epic battles and devastate the enemy. On the other hand, they have to tell a story with relatable characters and, in a way, deconstruct war.
In BfA, the last part, the deconstruction, worked very well - but everything else was messy. I also didn’t like the setup - we really had enough infighting in the Horde. Though I can’t really sympathize with the Sunreavers - not before they at least acknowledge that Aethas is also partially to blame - I really hope that they will come back to it at some point and resolve it.
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That was so bad. Saurfang didn’t even really talk to the Horde members that came to free Talanji. The Golden boy has to save everyone.
I don’t think they do. I mean it.
Do they though? Now, yeah perhaps, very likely. I think all of us were prouder during Legion. Even with things like Stormheim I think most players were prouder.
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Well, he did, he even pointed them in the right direction. 
Anduin just refreshed Saurfangs hope and renewed it, just as Zekhan did before. As I already summarized, it’s his struggle with hope, symbolized many times by Dranosh’s theme in the background.
Well… Saurfang LITERALLY tells Thrall that the defenders of Orgrimmar are Horde, too. ლ(ಠ ⌣ ಠ)
Careful, I wrote “need to reignite” 
They definetly riled up people at BlizzCon with that amazing trailer.
It was all good until… there basically was no real Faction War feeling in BfA most of the time. No proud Horde/Alliance-Moment or epic battles, only a strange, disconnected War Campaign arc with tons of Fillers in Kul Tiras and Zandalar.
Which then turned into SoO in HD, escaping Warchief inclusive. 
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As I said, I hate it.
We didn’t have to kill them, did we? Of course they had to show (Forsaken especially) that the Horde will come together again. I think they really failed this time though. All those internal strives and repetitions with worse stories, it’s so tiring.
The BfA trailer was really good and it seemed interesting. I agree the war feeling didn’t really come of. Probably also because of the way they told the story in the first place and opened with Teldrassil. The MoP 2.0 was to blatant to overlook.
I mean sure the Arathi warfront was neat and the Darkshore trailer, that was pretty much it.
There are so many things in the story that I expected, that could easily have been great plot twists or turning points, but just… weren’t:
-
Who burns Teldrassil?
Since BlizzCon, we had known Teldrassil would burn, with Saurfang, Nathanos and Sylvanas present, but… would they be responsible for it? Maybe it’s a plot of Queen Azshara who manipulates both factions! Maybe it’s an inside job, that should make the Horde look bad! Maybe Teldrassil’s roots have sucked Azerite into the tree and the whole thing will be a tragic accident? So much tension built and… yeah. It was Sylvanas while throwing a tantrum.
No surprise here. -
What about Derek?
Sylvanas planned everything so well and there has to be a surprise after Teldrassil, right? So what if… Sylvanas actually foresaw Baines course of action and had already brainwashed Derek? That the dagger on his back was so long in the middle of the screen in that cutscene has to mean something, right? What if… Baine unknowlingly plays into Sylvanas’ hands by bringing Derek back to Jaina? Maybe she’s counting on it! What if it’s part of the plan, so that Derek can kill Katherine and Jaina in their sleep and at the same time make Baine look guilty as well?! Come on, there has to be a plot twist! Oh. Okay. Nevermind. -
Azshara & N’Zoth
Okay, prepare for something big! Azshara is one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth! She and N’Zoth must have a plan that goes beyond just setting him free, right? There’s no way Blizzard will just bring them up as raidbosses and nothing else! Aaaaand… they’re dead.
It was all predictable and… kind of lame in the end. In my opinion, BfA was a setup-expansion for Shadowlands and nothing more. I mean, there were few good moments - the cinematics and the Nightelves FINALLY getting their edge back, but… there were also many missed chances and opportunities.
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If some of these posters denouncing Baine split any more hairs the entire Blood Elf population is going to wash over them in a murderous tide of hair care products.
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Great argument right there.
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I mean you’ve basically all replied to my arguments with “no u” in much longer ways so I’m mostly just kidding around at this point.
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No your arguments are just bad in defense of Baine.
That’s also from you. That’s not what this is about.
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