It’s fair to assume it shows Anduins authority over the Alliance. Besides from things like Gen calling Anduin his king.
Not at all. It’s all I want to say.
Yes brave Saurfang who tried to get killed. Keep telling yourself that if it makes the nonsensical story any better to digest to you. It’s not like the Forsaken Council was a thing before those two.
Yes a very strange thing to act upon. Especially after he went with the whole war. Not really a hero moment and even worse, killing soldiers who only wanted justice for Dalaran were killed to free him.
No he didn’t. Baine doesn’t care about such a thing. He even banished his own people for acting on their free will. He only cared about Derek because he was a Proudmore, that’s all there is to it and it’s pathetic from the writers.
You’re not offering anything to defend Baine really.
Ywan. So tell me, how did you see Carine? A true Tauren, who really was down to earth and never let his people senselessly die like Baine did.
Cairne barely had characterization because he died before Blizzard’s focus shifted to lore characters. And he died because he was against Garrosh’s aggressive nature. This whole idealization of Cairne is nothing more than rose-tinted glasses. Moreover, he along with Thrall was the one who agreed to team up with Jaina in the first place, in WC3.
If anything, Baine was more loyal to the Horde because he respected who was made Warchief and only turned on them when it was clear they were about to toss him under the bus.
You guys do understand that we just had a faction war and it was terrible, right? Seems some of you have forgotten about it already or only paid attention to the story now that it’s against the grain to want a faction war.
Edit: Also I forgot that in the Tauren heritage chain, the spirit of Cairne literally shows up to speak with Baine and reminds him that the Tauren way is harmony.
Of course he can pick a qualified person to stand in for him, it’s not like he is giving up his throne. So he picked the person who was in Stormwind, had already experience and a good reputation in that regard. I still don’t see the problem. If he had to check back every decision with his allies, he would not be High King of the Alliance. But on the other hand, they seem to have the freedom to not answer the High King’s call, so it’s not as absolute as the Warchief system.
Because he was tired of seeing another mad warchief using the Horde as a tool for destruction. Your point is?
Yeah, I mean like… what’s wrong with resurrecting the enemy, imprison, torture and brainwash him, then send them back to their family to murder them in their sleep, all that while you break the only rule you set for yourself?
Nothing wrong with that!
If you’re Scourge, of course.
Baine had nothing to do with the “Purge”, that doesn’t even make sense.
And I agree, Jaina’s and Vereesa’s violence is should have consequences.
But, please tell me, when will they have a trial for Aethas Sunreaver?
Aethas, as one of the people in charge, looked away when the treason happened, then took several guards to the Violet Citadel and waited for Jaina. He COULD have taken precautions to get his people to safety. He COULD have measured his words with care, even thought about negotiation. But what was his plan for damage control? Being sassy. But of course, IT WAS ALL JAINAS FAULT!
He banished those who wanted more bloodshed. Is it SO HARD to understand that this Tauren doesn’t want more deaths? That he KNOWS that violence will be answered with violence, only enabling the “Cycle of Hatred” in the first place?
The rest is your headcanon and as far as I’m concerned, not even worthy of discussing it.
And when did Baine do that? He values life, that’s why he tries to protect it whenever he can. That’s why he gave Jaina (who at that time also was pro peace) a warning before Theramore’s destruction, so she could evacuate. That’s why he saved Derek. That’s why he spared even Magatha, the woman who basically helped to kill his father in the most unfair way. He banned those who wanted vengeance, who wanted to see blood.
Carine had a good, fleshed out character. He was also a really beloved character.
Yes again, this was good he was a great character, not like his useless son.
Ok that’s a good joke.
You simply don’t understand what we are saying. This is prove of it.
That Saurfang is not a great example for anything positive during BFA.
We both know they butchered Sylvanas and BFAs story is nonsensical. But going from Teldrassil to “oh no poor Derek” and only act for this one person seems odd.
Some of the soldiers guarding him did.
So we are now victim blaming. In a thread about Baine. Interesting.
Defending themselves against an invasion seems reasonable to me.
He was 100% wrong about that, it didn’t matter. The Alliance attacked the Tauren after his decisions again.
On multiple occasions. He hesitated long before he acted against the Quilboars. Many died. He send his warriors against Theramore, even though he was against the war and warned Jania (meaning he knew he was sending them in to their death). His people died on the great gate.
Jainas forces attacked the Barrens and Sen’jin. Baine did not even send help to the Trolls.
And more Tauren died because of it later on.
That’s simply wrong. Cairne was impulsive, and acted to rash. He believed that Garrosh killed the Druids who were in peace talks. He was fast to act sure. Bu sometimes you have to act. He was a hero.
Baine is a stain on Cairnes honor and how he could stand for peace and his people at the same time.
That’s simply wrong. There are better Tauren.
If that’s what you’re takeaway is read again what we are saying.
That’s like I would say: “Night Elven players want Tyrande to become an insane avatar of vengeance and sink the world in blood.” You’re missing the point.
Factually untrue. That was when he became Alliance and banished loyal Horde Tauren from their homeland while excusing the alliance’s villainy and lying, stating that the crafter camp of Taurajo was a militant fort.
Except for an Orc that finally(!) realizes and verbalizes that the Horde was built on a lie. All this talk about strength and honor, yet built on the foundation of genocide and the bones of innocents. Yet they followed their Warchiefs again and again.
Saurfang’s story was one of understanding the greatest flaw of the Horde. And his actions alone prove him right. He lost the Mak’gora and his life, yet he still took the Horde from her by being smarter. He beat her not with strength, but with words.
I agree that he or Saurfang should have challenged Sylvanas much earlier for a Mak’gora - but obviously, Blizzard had a story to tell before that.
And since it should be the last battle for Saurfang, they did it step by step - not fast and without logic, like they usually tend do to.
Saurfang changed his view severeal times during the expansion. Seeing this instead of the usual way of storytelling was almost refreshing. (“Hi, this is the King speaking! Remember the Scourge, those guys who destroyed Lordaeron? Yeah, their Scourgelords are our Allies now, starting right now. kkthxbye!”)
If your argumentation is one-sided, I point it out.
Did he banish those Tauren because they wanted to DEFEND oder because they wanted VENGEANCE?
If only he had played the game like you did.
He warned Jaina so that she could evacuate. Why? Because he wanted to save lives. And he had to follow the Warchief, because… the hierarchy demanded it.
Could you explain that? I really don’t see what Baine has to do with this.
Because… peace would also help his people?
That’s something you could say about EVERY leader
There is always someone who could do it better.
Have you consindered that he might have considered Mak’gora but could still be troubled by the way it ended for his father? Let’s face is, Sylvanas does not exactly play by rules. She even asked Saurfang why she should accept his challenge.
That was also more about his own life and a good moment for sure. IT should tell the Saurfang honor crowd something.
This really doesn’t take away anything from my point.
Yeah invading the Night Elves and trying to get killed after wards, which would somehow magically stop Sylvanas was totally the right thing to do. Not.
Pretty much. I really don’t like BfA’s story. But there wasn’t really much logic with why Saurfang only acted after he talked to Anduin. None.
Victim blaming, like you did is one sided.
Both. In Baines view even defending them and their territory was “vengeance”. What did he get as a thanks? More dead Tauren and another Alliance attack on his people.
Still sending his people into senseless death.
Because Baine acted only for a Prouddmore he was in such a situation. Because the writers have a weird way of looking at things. Those guards didn’t deserve such a death. It’s a grip I have with the writers. Showhing how “good” Baine is and shifting others to the side.
Carine stood for peace yes. Baine doesn’t in my view. At least not for it and his people at the same time.
That’s not even my point. The argument was without Baine the Tauren would be doomed, for some magical reason.
Of course. But he is a leader. And in a war you don’t have the luxury to let your people die and not act. I know he wasn’t the only one. But this point seems really odd to me.
Well as she explains it, the Makgora only needs to be undertaken if both parties are loyal members of the Horde.
Cairne’s Makgora challenge fits right in with that. He did not flee, or willingly sit in an Alliance prison after abandoning the Horde in the height of battle. Cairne was a loyal member of the Horde.
Sylvanas even says:
“A traitor leading traitors. Why should I accept your challenge?”
Saurfang actually broke the rules by betraying and then challenging. Saurfang’s answer is not some pointed rule about why she must accept. He all but admits he has no standing to Makgora, and baits her by appealing to her sadism.
Here’s the thing. Baine is the son of Cairne. Cairne was a badass, I think most can agree on that.
All they need to do is show that Baine isn’t a pushover/damsel. He has the potential to be a force of nature… but I’m convinced the writers want to make him a spineless peace loving damsel.
Cairne also wanted peace, but he didn’t stand idly by while Garrosh was taking the horde in a hostile direction. Cairne would’ve challenged Sylvanas, if not before than definitely right after the WoT… we all know how Baine responded.
Give Baine a badass moment, he desperately needs it.
And Cairne was willing to fight to restore harmony. Baine wants to just roll over. Case in point, telling Talanji to seek diplomacy with the people who just murdered her father AT HIS FUNERAL.
It’s too late for Baine. He’s been Alliance for ten years.
Kill him and replace him.
And I swear to god if Baine gets a monument (muchless a grave) I’ll be furious. We’ve had Warchiefs die and got nothing.
That’s my point. Cairne was beloved because he had Warcraft 3 Nostalgia-Bonus.
Baine learned how to speak in BfA.
You said there was nothing positive about the Saurfang story, but there was.
In the end, the Horde changed to, from now on, let all voices be heard. That’s pretty positive in my opinion, since it rids the future story of the “It’s all <Warchief’s name>'s fault!”
You know what I mean. It was character development. Step 1, before Teldrassil: He fought for the Horde, like he did his whole life, wanted to end the wars once and for all. Teldrassil would be the hostage they needed.
Step 2, after Teldrassil:“Genocide? Senseless deaths and destruction again? I’ve seen this too often. Maybe I have lived too long.”
Step 3, before the Battle of Lordaeron: He wanted to die an honorable death, to be free from this life and reunite with his son. Zekhan, (acting as a symbol for the next generation of the Horde) gave him a motivation to live on. Gave him hope.
Step 4, during the Battle: Sylvanas used her plague again, did not hesitate to kill Horde soldiers during that move, just to raise their remains as pawns. Saurfang again, was shocked to his very core. The Horde was lost with that monster in charge.
Step 5, imprisoned: He was done with the Horde, which was no longer the Horde he knew. This was a Scourge in making and Sylvanas could do whatever she wanted. But just like in Lordaeron, a young man showed up. Anduin didn’t want to destroy the Horde, but he needed his help. Again, there was still hope.
Step 6, Baines imprisonment: He sought out the one Orc who founded this new Horde, to save the one voice in it who dared to oppose Sylvanas, even acted against her. Together, they freed Baine who had defended the golden rule of the Forsaken against the Banshee queen. Tell me, if the other leaders helped Baine then, would you call them out, too?
Step 7, reminiscing about the past: In my opinion, the most important conversation in this expansion, followed by Jaina’s and Thrall’s dialogue at Thunder Bluff.
Anduin, still full of naive optimism and Saurfang, filled with regret, because he had realized that what happened under Sylvanas was exactly what had happened in the First War. The Horde marched under a lie and under false pretenses, bringing only destruction and pain (As a big Draenei fan, I have waited for 13 years to hear an Orc say that ingame).
Step 8, the Mak’gora: Although he was clearly outmatched, he challenged Sylvanas not only in combat, but with words and actually made her slip. It was never about winning the physical fight, but to unmask her - expose the lie, or in that case, the liar.
Long story short: Saurfang underwent a very well constructed character development, with setbacks and failures - but he went on, found hope in certain people and endured. He was not a rebel from the beginning. This story changed him as much as it changed the Horde.
And had Blizzard constructed the Zone stories in BfA around that problem, instead of teasing and establishing a ton of new characters and systems, it could have worked! The War Campaign alone isn’t that bad in my opinion. I agree that all this should have happened way earlier, after Garrosh - it was way too late - but I’m also happy that they finally took the time and effort to deconstruct the flawed path of the Horde. Of course, now they have to rebuild it - but at least in a way, where every member can speak up and influence the political course.
I didn’t like BfA as a package, it was missing a leitmotif in my opinion and felt like a collection of several stories. But the Saurfang story and they way they orchestrated it is the one thing I will remember this expansion for.
Wrong, since I agreed that Jaina and Vereesa should also face consequences for Dalaran.
I’d like to read an actual source for that , not your interpretation of it.
Because that Warchief would otherwise punish him and his people for disobeying him. I believe Blizzard even stated at some point that the tauren and trolls followed the order because they had no choice.
So you’re referring to the guards who guarded Derek?
Blizzard made it very clear that the only ones we killed during the escape were Dark Rangers, even let the crew run away.
That says all these is to say about his motivations. He asks her, if she views all them as “pawns” in her game. Sylvanas confirms that in her speech after killing Saurfang.
You may not like Baine. You may not like what he stands for. But he was right.
(And trust me, I know this feeling. I was pissed for what Genn did at Stormheim, even after it turned out that his hunch about Sylvanas was right. It still bugs me that he did not have to face consequences for it).
So we are also in agreement about Aethas Sunreaver?
I’m not saying Baine is perfect or always makes the right choice. And just like Anduin, maybe he’s too naive. But it the end, he fought for the very soul of the Horde, you can’t deny that.
That is true. Thanks for pointing that out!
Or they actually intend to develop his personality, too. Let’s face it, most of the time, he was just standing there in Thunderbluff, ignored by the story for YEARS.
What I don’t understand is the “spineless” part. He’s clearly not a coward, speaks his mind and acts on it. I agree that he has to adjust his priorities, but to me, it seems that Blizzard has only started to really flesh out the characters a few years ago. A character who doesn’t want violence and deaths is not spineless or weak, on the contrary. Violence is the easiest way.
This.
The timing is bad, no question. But when you think about it, he’s right - that’s the very “cycle of hatred”. Violence leads to more violence and it ends when people start to talk to each other. That’s also why I think Anduin isn’t fit to be king (yet). He’s too good-natured and righteous, just as Baine - if you want these characters to fuel war (you know, since it’s Warcraft), you always need to make the other party look evil.
He’s been “Team Azeroth” from the very beginning. As a Pandaren, I approve it.
Blackhand was a fool.
Orgrim’s monument was a burning Stormwind City and the new Horde capital named after him.
Thrall’s monument, aside from Thrallmar, is the New Horde itself.
Vol’jin got nothing, but… he also did nothing (Wasted potencial imho).
Garroshs monument is the ruins of Theramore, while Sylvanas’ monument is a burned down World Tree and Saurfang’s grave.
Do you need more? Do you want a Megalomanic llike Varian who built a statue of himself during his lifetime?
Thanks for pointing that out!