Hey the Grimtotem are actually kinda interesting and probably have more lore than vanilla Tauren
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So put one like Stormsong in charge, he might be like Baine in some areas but would also be able to see when action would be needed. Magatha is just a flat NO for most. In other words, if we are to have Grimtotem lead, make it the Grimtotem that stayed loyal to Thunder Bluff/The Horde.
Wrong. Thatās what he does, all the time and his people bleed for it. Thatās not debatable.
Not in the way they are using Baine.
Indeed. You canāt let your people die and still be depicted as a ācompetentā person.
No it actually happened.
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It aint a meme that Highmountain taurens are just better taurens.
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None of the both.
Friendship with almost everyone (even though there was almost no connection in game, at best in some books).
No, no, no. Jaina was very different. There was a arc to all of it, a development we could see over the spawn of a whole game in WC3. Everything came together.
For Anduin, things simply are. For no reason and undeserved.
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Baine is a lame character and he has a stranglehold on the Tauren Story. I can sort of agree with the general sentiment of the thread. But if it came to a hard vote, I think there is space for him to grow as a character and contribute to the story. I do not think he needs to die or even stand down as leader for the Tauren to have interesting story arcs.
Highmountain was something. It was not ā¦ earth shatteringā¦ but it was a ton of Tauren content, with a zone and arc that had little to do with Baine. Which, in hindsight, was a good thing, lol.
I loathed Magatha for what she did to Cairne. Absolutely reviled the notion of working with her at all in Legion. But when my Shaman quested with her, I appreciated what her character could bring to the story. Her joke about making portals makes me crack a smile just thinking about it.
Lasan has been awesome in BfA. Bravo! Bravo, I say!
Runetotem has his moments. I remember rescuing that burning cow in Cata. But that sort of ādamsel in distressā act is part of why Baine gets so much grief.
I think he just needs to share the spotlight. Or recede into the background just a little. But he does not need to be replaced or killed.
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I donāt think Baine should leave the Tauren story, as much as I loathe him. He is a good diplomat.
I think the Tauren need a character with spine to fill the position with the camera, who is willing to take aggressive action against the enemies of the Horde, not seek immediate compromise.
This isnāt to say this character should be a warmonger, butā¦ cāmon.
Anyone but Baine.
Unfortunately, I donāt think that character /can/ be Baine. Heās deeply entrenched in who he is as a character and any development towards that end would feel hamfisted at best.
That boatās sailed for him and itās unlikely heāll see meaningful, worthwhile change thatād be both true to his character and good for the Tauren story.
If he, say, got less camera time and another character replacing him in that aspect, itād probably be more worthwhile for the Tauren.
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Just the same old story of a double standard and alliance bias here. Nothing new to see here. Alliance posters glooming themselves in their hypocrisy.
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All I will say now is it did not help when things that were datamined or removed that could have shown Baine in the light he really needed to be. Barrens/Mulgore Warfront? perfect place to showcase a Baine that is willing to fight for his people.
Tauren had the right leader in Vanilla through Wrath: Cairn, I would have loved to see Baine grow into a version of Cairn, striving for peace as much as possible but knowing when it is time to fight, .
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That will not happen. Heās just a yes man for Anduin and a damsel in distress that needs to be saved by the players most of the time. At this point any random Tauren could fit better as their leader then Baine.
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Gonna be honest most of the issues with baine is that he is used for āPeace stuffā in the game and in the books. Yes he kills alliance in siege of lordaeron but other than that myeah.
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Everyone seems annoyed by Anduinās ability to enchant everyone with the power of friendship. But I think thats more him being a product of Golden wanting to insert a role model for her boys.
And alright thatās nice I guess but Iām not sure why Warcraftās supposed to do that.
But thatās a poor utilization of character, not poor character. Anduin being forward thinking, forgiving and friendly isnāt inherently a bad thing and honestly as a temper to his fatherās hawk like tendencies I think it worked well. The character is still kinda struggling to find his role in the narrative.
Liked him in Shadowās Rising though. He seems to desperately want out, but even that thought causes him nauseating amounts of guilt. Felt for the guy honestly. He just wants to go to a tavern, drink, fart, get laid and not have to think about every problem on Azeroth for awhile and thatās fair really. Iām also confused why the Alliance put a teenage boy in charge when theyāve other people with decades to millenia of leadership experience.
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I am mostly okay with Anduin, the character. And if Blizz or Golden wants to have him as a role model then so be it.
I do have a problem with him in the role that he is in as King of Stormwind and High King of the Alliance. He projects ongoing naivete and optimism, that seems increasingly unearned given the events in his life. Perhaps, they can make it all work in the end if the effort to maintain this optimism causes him some kind of breakdown. Perhaps, the carousing and the shadow magic use is meant to foreshadow that he is reaching his limits.
To not totally derail the thread, I will say something about Baine. He has always struck me as Blizzās attempt to make a Horde version of pre-Theramore Jaina. A character who will advocate for peace even to the apparent short term detriment of their own faction. Like pre-Theramore Jaina and Alliance fans, current Baine draws a fair amount of ire from people who identify more with the Horde because he doesnāt seem to prioritize the Horde above all. He does, seem to me, to have even fewer supporters amongst Horde fans than pre-Theramore Jaina did amongst Alliance fans. I think that happens for a couple of reasons - a) Jaina had an existing fan base from WC III whereas Baine was a new character; and b) Unlike Jaina, Baine is a racial leader. If instead of being the Tauren leader, Baine occupied a position of prominence in the Tauren hierarchy equivalent to Jaina, he might attract less hate.
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I never said Anuins characteristics are bad. You can even see in other threads I liked how Theramore and the Horde worked together in WC3. Sure I often said Anduin is bad now. You explained the problem with him well. Itās not his idealism, nor his good nature. The problem with him lays in how he is being treated and used from the writers. Around MoP I saw potential for him. Then Golden made his wounds (every bone was broken from the divine bell) in to a tingly feeling if heās doing something wrong. Yeah. Not a great idea.
Picture a Ivar Ragnarson (the Boneless). Only from his nickname, not his actions. Or letās say: Imagine Anduin with one bad leg, or something that never healed 100% after his injuries from MoP. This could have made it even more interesting. Is it needed? No, not at all.
Often he didnāt really face consequences for him personally. Sure Garrosh was able to flee because of him and invade Azeroth with the Iron Horde. BfA perhaps had the first glimpse of something like that.
Another thing is really, why everyone likes him and simply accepts him as a Highking. Itās especially weird next to all those millennia old, wise leaders. He also simply made Turalyon the Highcommander of the Alliance.
The last problem with his friendships is: Why are they mostly (or only) shown in books? This can create a disconnection.
Madeleine gave him a better side in Shadows Rising for sure. To be honest, I donāt will buy the next book from Golden (except maybe even her worst critiques say her writing changed so much itās worth a read). I fear she will tear most positive things down again.
Edit: Sorry for the derail. If we want to talk about Anduin in detail, it should be in another thread.
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Honestly I think Goldenās prose is good. But Iāve said before itās very obvious she comes from a Star Trek background. And I like Star Trek, but I like it and Warcraft for very different reasons.
I also like calimari and strawberry icecream. But I wouldnāt try to mix the two together.
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Why are so many of them Grimtotems?
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Sounds like a plan.
Step 1: Replace Baine with Magatha, Thrall with a resurrected Garrosh, reinstate Sylvanas as Forsaken Leader, Gallywix for the Goblins, Kaelāthas for the Blood Elves and a resurrected Zul for the Trolls.
Step 2: Watch them wreck Azeroth.
Step 3: Cry and howl because Blizzard always makes the Horde look evil and clearly has an Alliance bias.
ā¦ Erevien logic, youāve got to love it. 
Itās important to have characters like Baine around who are not consumed by hatred and actually advocate peace - otherwise, the Horde would be as boring as the Alliance (before BfA), without any disputes. Sheep who followed the demigod High King Varian, kissing his feet, barely having anything to say or moments to shine. Thankfully, Blizzard has sown the seeds for some tensions in the Alliance - and in my opinion, the council is the best thing that could have happened to the Horde. Now, they have to give these leaders personalities and agendas. And I love it that Anduin is not a Gary Stu like his father. 
Likeā¦ Tyrande, who ignored his messages after Teldrassil? 
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You know it better than your question. 
Cut the others out this one I would deeply support. Rest can stay soft from the council members.
Compelling argument. 
Being High King didnāt help Anduin in that situation. Unlike the Horde under their Warchief, they really seem to be Allies - as in āpartnersā - and not subjects to the King. Thatās why the other leaders told him that they would support him, since they were all needed by their people in their respective homes (except Genn, but seriously, heās basically the Alliance-Garrosh with his short temper).
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