Once we get back to Azeroth and word spreads on how much of a mess the shadowlands is, people will be begging for undeath after they live their mortal life.
Sure? Maybe theyāll try to avoid the undead when they find out about Revendreth? Besides, what kind of disorder? āWe fixed everything,ā didnāt we?
Yep, itās in BtS which I would argue was not written for the Forsaken playerbase at all but instead painted a really bleak picture of Forsaken society in order to sell us Calia as their shining light and saviour.
If it was up to me the whole book should be made non canon. There were some good bits ( Nathanosā characterization, the Desolate Council concept ) but the downsides and inconsistencies outweigh them ( Sylvanas lying to herself in her inner monologues, a Scourge attack on Southshore that never happened canonically etc )
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So theyāll be Alliance then?
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Nah Lordaeron is 100% horde. Unless Garithos and internment camps come up, then itās the evil racist bigoted Allianceās fault.
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Itās a pretty shallow culture if itās mainly defined by such a thing. You can still value your traditional culture while still acknowledging things have changed. It doesnāt matter how right and wrong they were along the way, they are largely seen as the enemy by the Alliance on a racial basis. They have friends in the Horde now.
Itās not exactly a flattering image of the Alliance, nor the franchise as a whole to use it as the main reason for cultural legitimacy.
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Everything that has been defined as āLordaeronian cultureā is present within the Alliance, from its political system to its religion to its prominent historical symbols and heraldry.
Thatās what āLordaeronian cultureā means. If you want the Forsaken to embrace that more, it means embracing the Alliance more.
And I donāt see why having them defined by their ties to the Alliance is anything different from what youāre proposing, which is that they be defined exclusively by their membership in the Horde.
I mean I know why itās different to you, itās because you want the Horde to have everything, and for the Alliance to have nothing. Even Alliance history and culture, you would deny the Alliance.
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I knew that the faction imbalance was seriously damaging to the game at this point but I had no idea itād be so damaging even to the lore community that I have to constantly remind people that the Alliance even exists and has its own history and identity.
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Nope.
Listen I think weāre at a point where we have to agree to disagree, mate haha. Iāve only been posting here for like a week and I swear weāve had the same debate like 5 times.
We can argue until weāre blue in the face about how well itās been represented in game but the Forsaken have valid reasons for joining the Horde instead of the Alliance and I think itād be a gross betrayal at this point if they just faction-flipped (though Iām not against them maintaining more positive diplomatic relations) after all the Horde has done for them over the years.
The Horde welcomed them and helped them grow their strength, in the early days of WoW, when most of the world saw them, rightly or wrongly, as Scourge. The envoys Sylvanas sent to Stormwind never returned. We have no idea why, and that can be debated, but the fact is it was the Horde who took them in, not the Alliance. The Tauren in particular sought to redeem them. The Horde forgave the Forsaken after the Wrathgate. Orgrimmar shielded Forsaken refugees after the fall of Undercity, and continues to do so if NPCs are any indication. The reformed Horde Council stuck with the Forsaken even despite the actions of Sylvanas and all the blighting that went on during the Fourth War. Thrall even says something to the effect of āThe Horde is not the Horde without the Forsakenā in Shadows Rising. After all theyāve done, stuff that would condemn their entire race to being considered āScourge 2ā in the eyes of many, the Horde still stands by the Forsaken.
If the Forsaken were to turn around and spit in the face of that as a CONDITION of embracing their human heritage more, itād be a vile betrayal of the only allies they have thatāve consistently stuck by them, all this time.
Nope.
Thatās like saying the USA needs to continue to be a part of the British Empire if it wants to have a Renaissance Faire. You can celebrate aspects of culture and heritage without actually having to be in a political union that existed in the past. The people of the USA didnāt abandon every single aspect and influence of British culture when they revolted against British rule - but they did form their own distinct identity going forward.
Thatās what I want to see from the Forsaken. I want them to reform morally somewhat by looking backward to aspects of their Alliance history, for example Queen Menethil and some national revival around their Lordaeronian history, but also to acknowledge that they are different now, with unique cultural traits such as the Apothecaries and Cult of the Forgotten Shadow that didnāt exist prior to their fall.
They are, in a way, an evolution, a legacy of Old Lordaeron, twisted by tragedy. I want them to rediscover some of those themes, but to do so they do not need to embrace ALL of them, nor do they need to rejoin the Alliance to reclaim those themes.
Anyway thisāll be my last comment on this matter because we keep having this exact same debate and Iām tired of it - knowing that youāre going to lean really heavily into your Alliance bias, and while I love and enjoy both factions, Iāve got a little Forsaken bias of my own I suppose, by dint of my main being Forsaken. Itās clear weāre not going to agree or even come to a compromise so I see no need for either of us to continue banging our head against a mutual brick wall on this LMAO. I guess itās Blizzardās decision in the end - may the best Lordaeronian win 
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How come everything that the Horde has nominally done for them (even when itās an indictment of the Horde itself) counts but everything that the Alliance did for them when they were human doesnāt?
Thatās the double standard youāre holding. You want them to have a Lordaeron/Human identity but at the same time youāre drawing an arbitrary dividing line between the RTS games and WoW for what parts of that identity are valid and which ones arenāt.
It reeks of the whole āForsaken are basically just political props to the Hordeā problem that always lingers around these discussions. You want them to explore their heritage, but only insofar as itās convenient to the Horde for them to do so.
Like, āyou can do human things, just donāt get too uppity about it.ā
You want to take Alliance themes away from the Alliance and give them to the Horde when the Alliance is already struggling to even survive as a viable playable player faction.
If you want Lordaeron stuff, you should have to roll Alliance because thatās where historical Lordaeron identity lies. Instead itās just one more element of Alliance identity thatās been dissolved for the sake of the Horde.
Like, if you want the traditional hallmarks of the Alliance/Human experience, like Kings and Wizards and Royal Dynasties and Kingdoms and Churches and Knights and whatnot, you donāt even have to roll Alliance to get that anymore since apparently a critical mass of Horde players have convinced themselves, rightly or wrongly, that they can get that from the Horde.
Itās genuinely upsetting, and most posters here canāt comprehend that because most players here are Horde partisans. As is increasingly the case throughout all elements of the game.
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Horde even have frigging Night Elf Sentinels now thanks to the Forsakenās superpower of serving as a convenient means to take things from the Alliance and give them to the Horde.
Itās like Blizzard is actually trying to kill the Alliance.
I wouldnāt be surprised if even Edgelord Anduin joins the Horde. I mean why not at this point?
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I have said it before, at this point horde players will not stop until WarCraft 2 is retconned as a horde civil war.
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The rule of it being more recent. Britain and France had hundreds of years of bitter war and rivalry but after the Napoleonic era the two powers became Allies, and remain military allies to this day. The French or British COULD pull away from that because of the bad history that preceeded itā¦ but they do not because their current military alliance is effective and useful to both sides. Maybe the Forsaken have a similar comparison there, with the Horde.
The Alliance has not existed forever. It hasnāt needed to. Several Kingdoms seceeded from it, and prior to the Second War it didnāt exist at all. It was a blip on human history. Think of Forsaken Lordaeron as a human Kingdom that has no further desire to be a part of the Alliance. Membership isnāt mandatory. Thereās a much longer period of human history where Lordaeron wasnāt part of any political faction at all.
See the following from my previous post.
At this point all of those things are firmly entrenched in even the Blood Elf lore at this point. These things can exist across factions.
Iām sorry youāre upset by it. All you can do is leave your feedback and hope Blizzard listens.
I can only speak for myself - I play and enjoy both factions. I always have a Horde main and an Alliance main, and I actually started as an exclusively Alliance player. Forsaken are pretty much the only thing that draws me to the Horde, especially after Before the Storm, which gave them an in-universe nuance Iād been craving for years.
But sadly we do disagree on this. I am not personally against the appropriating of some historically Lordaeronian characters for the Forsaken. I never wanted Derek Proumoore, that was out of left field. Calia, Iāve wanted as a Forsaken for years. Alonsus Faol, I want as a Forsaken. I do not want existing, current Alliance characters to be poached. I do not want Anduin. I do not want to kill Turalyon and make him Forsaken. But I wouldnāt mind a historical figure here and there, as I feel Forsaken were presented as this legacy, this remnant of Lordaeron after the Scourgeā¦ and we mainly just had our 1 elf faction leader and nobody else. To me, that was unfair. At the end of the day, we disagree on that, and I donāt think any amount of debating is going to convince either of usā¦ so Iām gonna leave it there, for real this time. While I canāt with all honesty hope you get your wishes granted, I wish you well.
I have never heard anyone suggest this and I think itās a ridiculous notion, but have fun with your tinfoil hat, good sir.
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Itās the natural end result of the āForsaken are Lordaeronā rhetoric.
And thatās something that you donāt seem to get. This is, as is the case for pretty much all discussion on this forum when it comes down to it, about identity. And about how Alliance identity has been progressively diluted over the course of WoW for the sake of taking significant portions of that identity and either straight up giving it to the Horde, like in the case of Lordaeron and Quelāthalas, or marginalizing it for the sake of the Horde, such as with the Night Elves.
Alliance identity has suffered repeated, critical blows over the course of WoWās lifespan, all for the sake of the Horde. In TBC Quelāthalas was given to the Horde, which was devastating for High Elf fans. In Cataclysm Blizzard started to lean on āpeople of Lordaeronā rhetoric for the Forsaken, which was devastating for Human fans. In BfA the Night Elves were rendered impotent and offered up on a platter to advance the Horde storyline (followed by the added insult of many of those same Night Elf victims joining the Horde) and that was devastating to Night Elf fans.
Paladins? Neutral. Silver Hand? Neutral. Cenarion Circle? Neutral. Dalaran? Neutral. Canāt deny the Horde access to these signatures of Alliance identity after all.
So you really, really need to sit still, take a deep breath, and meditate for a moment on what itās like, given that Alliance identity was on life support even 5 expansions ago, and is now in complete tatters to the point that the Alliance is no longer a viable faction to play the game on for most people, for Alliance players to read you advocating that the main problem with the Horde is that it hasnāt co-opted enough Alliance identity.
If you want to know why Alliance fans often seem so defensive, or unreasonable, or biased, or whatever, itās because weāve been fighting desperately throughout most of WoWās lifespan to retain our own identities in the context of WoW, and weāve been losing. Weāve been losing since Cataclysm, and as of BfA weāre in terminal decline.
Weāre dying as a faction Sarastha. And despite your good intentions, despite what is a refreshingly less partisan take than is what is more common on these forums, when it comes down to it youāre still looking at a faction on life support and saying that its oxygen needs to be re-routed to a faction that isnāt even sick.
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Like, Iām this forumās champion of reconciliation between Humans and Forsaken to the point that Iām willing to give up Alliance claims so long as that gesture is reciprocated, but it never is. Nobody has ever supported what is in my opinion an eminently reasonable compromise.
And the reason is because the Horde has no reason to compromise. They have everything they want in this regard. Why compromise with losers that you know are no threat to you anyway? The Alliance doesnāt have anything to offer them; they already have everything they want from the Alliance.
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Thereās also a 17 year period where every npc thatās aligned to my faction has a Lordaeron symbol next to their heads. Not really keen on that suddenly being a horde symbol for some weird reason.
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Heck, they are still using it to represent the Alliance. Hearthstoneās Alliance coin is a Lordearon symbol.
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I mean, Icon of Courage is still used on the official WoW siteās human race page.
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On this we agree, we simply disagree on eviscerating the pre-Scourge history of the Forsaken to do so. I appreciate the comment about the non-partisan thing too - I sincerely mean it when I say I love both factions. I appreciate the effort to appeal to my sense of sympathy for the Alliance and I want to assure you - I do have sympathy for their plight. I just donāt think the solution rests soley in Lordaeron and Lordaeric identity.
So, as said above, Iāll leave the Lordaeron topic to the side and talk about how to help the Alliance as a faction, across WoW as a whole. Because I do think the Alliance deserves some major concessions, given both their position in gameplay and in lore, following the Fourth War.
First concession Iāll mention is one that Blizzard esentially already listened on: High Elves. Iāve consistently spoken in favour of High Elves as a playable race for the Alliance, as theyāve had major representation, in force, in almost every expansion. (Allerian Stronghold in BC, The Silver Covenant in WotLK, Assault on ZulāAman in Cata, Silver Covenant again in MoP, and the Suramar campaign in Legion). Itās been a travesty that theyāve remained unplayable for so long, and while I see a lot of Horde players whining about the natural hair colours and skin tones āstealingā from Blood Elves, I think itās about time the Alliance got a race theyāve been teased with for a long, long time. Step 2 is making a Renādorei/Quelādorei city, but I wonāt get bogged down in that as thereās plenty of different ways that could happen.
Concession 2, in my opinion, should be the complete redevelopment of Stromgarde. I donāt want them to just forget itā¦ and to be honest with you, I think this is where the Alliance could get some undead. Galen Trollbane, in Legion, took a bunch of his Stromic Undead and broke away from the Forsaken, setting up his own little Kingdom (Itās a story beat of the Death Knight Campaign, where Thoras Trollbane is raised). This provides an opportunity for Stromgarde, in my opinion. I would sincerely not argue with Thoras reclaiming his throne as King of Stromgarde for the Alliance, with Danath as his heir, and actually ruling a Kingdom of Undead and Humans, united as one. It could serve as a brilliant example of unity to the rest of the world, and a nod to the mixed ethnicity and political affiliation of some ex-Forsaken. I wouldnāt even argue with some playable undead customisation options to make this playable (for example, making the more undead skin-tones and face options of human death knights available to any human class). This is actually an idea Iām really keen for and Iād love to see it developed - because surely some of Galenās āindependent Stromgardeā Undead survived!
Concession 3 would be a split-Lordaeron, as discussed in previous threads. I wonāt go into heaps of detail as Iāve done so elsewhere, but Iād love to see an East/West Germany Cold War divide between the Horde Forsaken and the Alliance Lordaeronians. Iād genuinely like to see the Alliance Lordaeronians have a presence in the lands of that old Kingdom, and re-establish an Alliance version. I just donāt want the Forsaken to lose out on Lordaeronian identity entirely.
Concession 4 would be a Night Elf city - a decent one. I want to see Nordrassil reforged into a glorious Kaldorei city with the best work the art team can muster. The Night Elves have had a REALLY bad run recently, and Night Elf fans deserve something really cool.
Concession 5 would be Gilneas restored to its full borders - and Genn actually moving back there. Iād like to see that land populated with NPCs, and maybe even with a few quests as part of the leveling experience.
Thereās more and more I could list, such as a visitable and remade Shadowforge City, a complete remodel of Azuremyst Isle with new Draenei assets to make them have actual settlements rather than a bunch of ruined spaceship bits. But my point is I think the Alliance deserve more story attention, and maybe even a driving force in the next faction-based expansion, given that the Alliance has had a woefully reactionary role in both Faction-War storylines while the Horde has gotten a lot of internal development. I want to see that internal development for the Alliance!
So I hope that clarifies my position. Iām a Forsaken fan, Iām a Horde fan and Iām a Lordaeron fan, and I want to see those threads present in the future of WoW. But I am also an Alliance fan, and I sincerely want the Alliance to actually get more narrative attention and more internal development in the upcoming expansions, as the Horde has already had a lot of that.
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I fully agree that forsaken should hold a piece of Lordaeron forever. I just wish they expanded into Plaguelands instead of us losing Southshore/Gilneas for that expansion. Itās a two-faction game and as many zones as possible should be contested, just for wpvp and replayabilityās sake.
I just donāt like the notion of horde using Alliance symbols. I think forsaken should stick with their own theme.
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