Forsaken population

[Thormus-hakkar]

You simply can’t just remove the human connection to Lordaeron and “Move on.” It’s not that simple. Doing that PLUS giving all of that legacy to the Forsaken does nothing but invalidates the most important pieces of Alliance history. The Alliance was literally founded in Lordaeron to fight the Horde prior to the Second War & is where a big part of the Human/Alliance storyline took place during WC3. Denying all of that is stripping the Alliance of everything really. By that token the Alliance pretty much had no significant role in WC2 or WC3 since Lordaeron was front and center in it.

Especially since not only is Lordaeron itself no longer occupied, but Theramore which was where Jaina and her people who went west and founded is nuked. Further destroying any remnant of the Alliance/Human’s WC3 Legacy.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Thormus-hakkar

You simply can’t just remove the human connection to Lordaeron and “Move on.” It’s not that simple. Doing that PLUS giving all of that legacy to the Forsaken does nothing but invalidates the most important pieces of Alliance history.

Stormwind’s citizens are of Stormwind.
Undercity’s citizens are of Lordaeron.
It is that simple. Embrace the other parts of humanity: Lordaeron isn’t yours.

[Northgrave-lothar]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Lordaeron isn’t yours.

Neither it’s yours though, post-BfA. Alliance holds Hillsbrad, our dear friends Argents most of the Plaguelands, Capital City proper is blighted and forsaken only exist here and there in Tirisfal.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Northgrave-lothar

our dear friends Argents

You can claim the Silverhand.
You can’t claim the Argent Crusade.

@Northgrave-lothar

Neither it’s yours though, post-BfA. Alliance holds Hillsbrad, our dear friends Argents most of the Plaguelands, Capital City proper is blighted and forsaken only exist here and there in Tirisfal.

Also quoting all of this for posterity.
You’re silly if you think that night elves will get their homebase back (and they will, already confirmed via twitter) but the Forsaken won’t.

[Northgrave-lothar]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

You can’t claim the Argent Crusade.

I’m not claiming anything, was a sarcastic remark because I hate Argents and it would be nice if they were a thorn in horde’s side instead of just in Alliance’s.

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

The sheer audacity required to try and dictate other people’s identities to them like that.

[Northgrave-lothar]

You know what, I have been arguing about this stuff for years, but no one who claimed “Blizzard never wanted Alliance to have anything to do with Lordaeron!!!” ever came up with a good explanation why there is a Lordaeron symbol next to every Alliance npc you click on. Maybe it will happen now.

Oh and also my bases in every bg map are marked with a Lordaeron symbol too. Perfect when you are fighting against the “real heirs of Lordaeron”.

[Chaeor-azjolnerub]

@Northgrave-lothar

And two of them are unrelated to playable humans at this point.

By in-game limits, you’re all from Stormwind.

@Northgrave-lothar

We had Southshore, an actual remnant of Lordaeron using the two-headed gryphon tabard, for over 6 years.

Gassed and then given back to Alliance at a Blizzcon not too long after. Game story argument is with the devs, not players.

@Northgrave-lothar

Yeah, forsaken should start celebrating the defeat of the horde in the 2nd war and placing of the orcs in internment camps. Could be a new event instead of Hallow’s End.

Ah, the reductio. Humans could return to their actual ancestral home: Northrend.

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

Blizzard sold human players entirely on a narrative about reclaiming their former glory. It’s right there on their character select screen and it was the driving force behind the human narrative from vanilla through to WotLK

They never sold you on defeating a player race and effectively driving it from the game.

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

It is when absolutely all of that history has been moved to the Forsaken,

The Forsaken are former Humans, mostly of Lordaeron. The history of Lordaeron is part of their history.

@Thormus-hakkar

You simply can’t just remove the human connection to Lordaeron and “Move on.”

It was a human kingdom. It isn’t now. It’s a lost kingdom. That doesn’t change the history, but it is still history.

@Thormus-hakkar

Doing that PLUS giving all of that legacy to the Forsaken does nothing but invalidates the most important pieces of Alliance history.

The Alliance is not just Lordaeron, they just followed real world practices in naming it the Alliance of Lordaeron:

The city’s survivors, including the young prince, Varian Wrynn, fled to Lordaeron, where the leaders of the seven kingdoms resolved to unify once again in the Alliance of Lordaeron.

“Once again”. They had not been unified. Gilneas and Stromgarde abandoned the Alliance soon enough. Broken oaths is a thing they do a lot in the story.

@Thormus-hakkar

Especially since not only is Lordaeron itself no longer occupied, but Theramore which was where Jaina and her people who went west and founded is nuked. Further destroying any remnant of the Alliance/Human’s WC3 Legacy.

Why are you guys so locked onto the inanimate of the paper agreement called “the Alliance of Lordaeron”?
Humans are not the Alliance, the Alliance is not Humans. The Alliance now in game has transcended the WC3 one. Humans are still in the game and operating out of the kingdom the series started in.

The kingdom of Stormwind has become the strongest bastion of humanity and the most powerful force in the now multi-racial Alliance. Now, the people of Stormwind hold fast to the principles of honor and justice as they defend their settlements and their allies.

As I’ve said before, you can RP the backstory you want. But the game story is what it is.

“Those who currently inhabit Lordaeron lived there in life. The Forsaken are the true heirs. It belongs to them now.”
-Calia
Excerpt From: Christie Golden. “Before the Storm (World of Warcraft).”

[Northgrave-lothar]

@Chaeor-azjolnerub

By in-game limits, you’re all from Stormwind.

…with Lordaeron symbols around every npc and in every bg map.

@Chaeor-azjolnerub

But the game story is what it is.

The “game story” also told me this 3 years ago:

"Champions of the Alliance,

At last the time has come for us to reclaim what is rightfully ours! Our final push to retake Lordaeron Keep shall commence at dawn.

The Horde must answer for their crimes!

King Anduin Wrynn"

Hour of Reckoning (Alliance)

It’s even voiced by Anduin’s voice-actor. Pretty cool.

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

None of what you’re saying is actually relevant to the point that we’re getting at, which is that human fans identify strongly with Lordaeron and the Alliance’s RTS history and we’ve been robbed of that. It sucks and we don’t like that Blizzard did that because it made our faction suck and it marginalized our emotional investment in the universe for the sake of propping up a Horde faction.

Your responses keep coming across as “I don’t care lol, QQ more” which I guess is at least the consistent Horde position on the matter. It must be nice to have literally everything you want at the expense of others.

[Thormus-hakkar]

@Chaeor-azjolnerub

It was a human kingdom. It isn’t now. It’s a lost kingdom. That doesn’t change the history, but it is still history.

It was the Kingdom that the very Alliance was founded in and played a central role in WC3. Any semblance of downplaying the Alliance connection to that kingdom is invalidating the most important pieces of their story.

But it goes further than just invalidating it really. Stripping that legacy from the Alliance and giving it to the Forsaken is even worse. It’s like the Alliance didnt even exist and everything in WC3 is just Horde lore now.

@Chaeor-azjolnerub

The Alliance is not just Lordaeron

There’s other members sure. But Lordaeron was largely the core of that. It was the foundation of the Alliance. The Lordaeron symbol is still used in the Alliance till this day and it’s the PVP symbol.

[Izhkarl-khazgoroth (Izhkarl)]

@Thormus-hakkar

The Lordaeron symbol is still used in the Alliance till this day and it’s the PVP symbol.

The forsaken sometimes use the scourge.

The reason the alliance uses the Lordaeron symbol is to appeal to an idealized and glorious past. They either lack the confidence in their own accomplishments, or alternately they need a symbol of unity where that unity is threatened by internal division. Ironically the Grand Alliance of Lordaeron seems to have lasted for possibly less time than the history of wow.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

…
Can we conclude that members of the Horde are proud of their monstrous past and encourage repeating the same paths, since they do not change their symbol?

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Izhkarl-khazgoroth

The reason the alliance uses the Lordaeron symbol is to appeal to an idealized and glorious past. They either lack the confidence in their own accomplishments, or alternately they need a symbol of unity where that unity is threatened by internal division. Ironically the Grand Alliance of Lordaeron seems to have lasted for possibly less time than the history of wow.

Lorewise the Alliance lasted 15 years. If each expansion is about a year, lorewise it was still longer then the history of WoW.

Also, the Alliance use the symbol because it honors its past. It was the birthplace of the Alliance, why wouldn’t it honor it?

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

The sheer audacity required to try and dictate other people’s identities to them like that.

I didn’t do it.
Blizzard did.
In vanilla and cataclysm.

Also,

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

The sheer audacity required to try and dictate other people’s identities to them like that.

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

I don’t know why you guys are bringing up Varian having a rip-off of Thrall’s story since it’s not even in the same universe as how bankrupt human lore has become as a result of the Forsaken co-opting the collective narrative of the entire human race as built up since the beginning of the franchise

This isn’t even just my opinion at this point. In this very thread Horde posters who are constantly advocating the Forsaken’s connection to the historical human narrative are simultaneously making the accurate observation that human lore as it stands right now freaking sucks, is boring, and feels disconnected from the universe at large

Bold of you to state that what was allotted by Blizzard to the Forsaken is rightly yours.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Northgrave-lothar

You know what, I have been arguing about this stuff for years, but no one who claimed “Blizzard never wanted Alliance to have anything to do with Lordaeron!!!” ever came up with a good explanation why there is a Lordaeron symbol next to every Alliance npc you click on.

For the same reason that the ingame forsaken tabard and banner default to the scourge: human error.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

I didn’t do it.
Blizzard did.
In vanilla and cataclysm.

They are not. They have literally just told us they give us tool to make our identities.

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Bold of you to state that what was allotted by Blizzard to the Forsaken is rightly yours.

And now it belongs to no one and we will all have to wait for whatever the future holds for Capital City and in the same time for Teldrassil.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Zerde-sargeras

They are not.

It’s literally in the background story of ALL human player characters.

@Zerde-sargeras

And now it belongs to no one and we will all have to wait for whatever the future holds for Capital City and in the same time for Teldrassil.

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Also quoting all of this for posterity.
You’re silly if you think that night elves will get their homebase back (and they will, already confirmed via twitter) but the Forsaken won’t.

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

Dreadmoore isn’t even contesting that human fans got screwed at this point, he’s just proclaiming that he’s happy that they got screwed

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

It’s literally in the background story of ALL human player characters.

And again, it is literally just an intro that doesn’t even contain the entire lore. Heck, as mentioned, Turaylon now leads Stormwind.