Zogam’mar Outpost(or however you spell it) was a ruin according to the novella(which makes lore sense considering the night elves controlled Ashenvale at the time) and yet it looks perfectly fine for the player character and was used as the base for The War of Thorns.
We have dozen of Cata quest that are repeats of Vanilla with minor variations making which ever of the two is canon vague. Heck, with the books telling us who the lore doers are of various raid and dungeons it makes the player experience an even less reliable source of lore.
We are getting a Sylvanas novel so who know, with a novelized version of events we might see the Siege of Lordearon have a different feel.
Its been a while, but I’m quite sure(90%) that per Tides of War there were civilians that didn’t want to leave Theramore because “muh home.”
Well we already discussed the fate of Theramore imo aka slaughtermore and you’re citing Stormwind as a place of destination. I can totally get behind a few refugees residing in Stormwind, and I’ve waiting dang near 2 decades for some substantial development. I’ve had this discussion more times than I can remember and each time it feels like we’re scrapping the bottom of the barrels to give the living former citizens that live in Lordaeron some substantial existence. They have been effectively non existent, while the Forsaken quest are rich with Forsaken talking about their lives in Lordaeron.
BtS has been the best thing that has happened to the living former citizens of Lordaeron that live in Stormwind, period; it gave them development and life. Unfortunately it put the nail in coffin for the SF’s legitimacy discussion, with the legitimate heir proclaiming that Lordaeron belong to the Forsaken.
I think its good to see other people’s perspective and speculate.
If this is allegedly what he believes, there’s no debate. Is it really absurd, especially since we don’t have official numbers. We are all just speculating based on events/references etc etc, what if he believes that the Forsaken makes up 99% of the former citizens of Lordaeron, while the living refugees make up 1%? It doesn’t seem that absurd that Lordaeron should belong to the Forsaken.
The takeaway there is that the Horde reoccupied an old abandoned base as a launch point for their assault but Blizzard didn’t want to make new ruined assets and phase ashenvale
Gameplay pragmatism. I can’t think of one of those quests that has major storyline significance. They’re all pretty minor. The main stories of zones were still by and large overhauled.
Anything is possible. But until then the only evidence we have is a scenario so it’s pretty disingenuous to ignore the only evidence we have on the off chance it might get retconned later.
Garrosh had the residents of Theramore murdered in Siege of Orgrimmar, so even if Theramore was the biggest repository of living beings that ever existed (it wasn’t), they’re dead now anyway.
Garrosh had SOME of the residents(namely those who lived outside the city and couldn’t evacuate) murdered.
As per Warcrimes the civilians who escaped thanks to the Alliance are safe.
And what happens in a few generations? Assuming the forsaken permanently lose the ability to create new forsaken while the survivors have kids and the balance change? Using population number to determine who is the legitimate heir is just tyranny of the majority.
Zerde: The very very tiny incredibly small amount of genocide survivors who survived two separate genocides are more numerous than the kingdom of undead Lordaeronians.
If what you’re saying is true, I believe what is good for the geese is good for the gander, but it wouldn’t be legitimate it would be an illegitimate invasion. Nonetheless it would belong to the illegitimate Alliance.
I don’t think it can get anymore legitimate than Calia proclaiming that the Forsaken are the true heirs.
If she gave up her throne then her proclamation holds little if any value. And again there is still the question of her daughter(assuming she is alive). Something tell me if WoW last long enough we might actually find out the Scalets may have her or more interestingly might actually grow up and decide she wants to lead the living survivors of Lordearon in contrast to her mother. Blizzard is sadistic enough to pit families against each other.
Theramore never had a monarch nor did it really have any settlements outside of Theramore itself. Sure they had a military base at Northwatch Hold, and later another one in the Southern Barrens, but all attempts by Theramore to actually set up outlying settlements failed (as evidenced by the forsaken inn, or whatever it’s called)
Theramore was a dictatorial city state, not a Kingdom. And if they seriously said it was stronger than the Night Elves I don’t understand how, given that the Night Elves have a lot of settlements strewn throughout northern Kalimdor.
The same can be said of Dalaran but for all intents and purposes we call it a kingdom. Warcraft is pretty liberal with the term.
Kul Tiras does not have a monarchy either but again we call it a Kingdom.
Also lorewise it did have settlements outside the city proper like Northwatch and I assume other civilian zones(as mentioned earlier the civilians captured by Garrosh was suppose to be from outside the city who couldnt get to Theramore city proper in time)
I’d argue the Kul Tirans have a monarchy but the monarch’s title is “Lord Admiral”.
Fair enough point re Dalaran though. It does seem to be liberally applied to human nations, even if their government structure isn’t actually a Kingdom. Dalaran for instance is clearly an oligarchy.
Different monarchies have different rules though. For example the Holy Roman Empire (Medieval Germany and friends) had an elected monarch with very little centralised power. The Pope is technically a monarch, but certainly doesn’t have any Princesses!
I wonder if Kul Tiras’ status, more realistically, is akin to a Grand Duchy rather than a “Kingdom”. It’s clearly run by a Noble House with a hereditary line of succession but other Noble Houses clearly have strong influence over certain regions and aspects of the nation’s rule. Maybe that’s why Jaina’s not considered a “Princess” per se.
To bring this back around to Lordaeron/The Forsaken do you think living Lordaeronians would back Jaina as a potential candidate for Lordaeron’s Throne? As the at one point fiancee of Arthas she could ALMOST have a claim… a claim that’d be strengthened by her former rule of the predominantly Lordaeronian City State of Theramore. I wonder what a personal union of Kul Tiras and Lordaeron would look like? There’d be potential for some internal religious division there - Light vs Tidesages!!
I dunno why there’s still this constant claim that the survivors of the Scourge must be some really small number when there were enough survivors to revive the Scarlet Crusade like 3 times in a row.
If Blizzard can justify the Scarlet Crusade and the Cult of the Damned and other relatively tiny factions as being persistent threats all the way to now then they can easily justify enough Lordaeron humans in the Alliance to repopulate the entire kingdom if they wanted to.
Probably not nor would I expect her to try something like that. Turaylon on the other hand as an actual Lordearanian born from nobility and was the one time leader of the Alliance of Lordearon might have a more legitimate(or at least more zealous inducing) claim.
To be fair the EK book does say the group has now been destroyed but like rats I am not 100% sure the Scarlet Crusade is gone forever.
As of Cata there were already enough surviving Lordaeron humans to populate Hearthglen, Andorhal (hence why the Alliance was there), Hillsbrad, Southshore, Tyr’s Hand, and Theramore. The Argents seem to be convinced that there would be sufficient demand for the living to return to Lordaeron that retaking Stratholme is viable, and that didn’t include the large settlements that the Scarlets were able to create in Vanilla through WotLK like Havenshire or the Scarlet Monastery.
There are TONS of living Lordaeronians literally in all corners of human civilization.
Sure, as a group, but not down to a man. There are many instances of former Scarlets simply abandoning the organization, a trend that probably would have accelerated as they began to lose. They can absolutely be added to the pile of “examples of large numbers of living survivors in Lordaeron.”