You asked for reasons and you got them, you just choose to ignore them because it doesn’t suit you. 
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No, because while opening up covenants would not affect me, I’d still likely stick with Venthry, there would be those who would be like “change your covenant for this or get kicked”.
Those that want to change covenants on the fly should be able to, but there should be no looking down on others if they choose not to do so. If you can prove no would would kick others from content for refusing to change covenants for the content, then I feel they should open up the covenants, but if even ONE PLAYER does so, that is all it takes to start the snowball.
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I do love me a good old consensus bias post.
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If there is such an astronomically small population of people that wouldn’t want to switch at all that they couldn’t even fill groups with similar minded players, how is it good game design to go in the direction that discourages the large majority from enjoying the game the way they are used to?
You’re basically saying it isn’t okay to discourage the odd person here and there from not swapping if peer pressure is enough to do that (because the game mechanics would not stop them from playing how they want) but it IS ago to install game mechanics that just literally prevent the much larger audience from playing how they want
Because the RP reasons don’t make sense. The story doesn’t even dictate that covenants should be separate from one another. We do everything to help all four covenants.
If the RP mattered as much as you pretend we’d only be able to do dungeons and world quests in the zone of the covenant we selected
Next tier is literally about uniting the covenants. Why can’t they unite their abilities onto my action bars?
I’ve addressed it multiple times. I never ignored it. It’s just not a good answer.
That argument would hold more weight if there were more than 18 players with Sire logs as necro (only 3 are boomkin too btw).
How good is it for palyers of the game to more or less force others to play their way,?
Ideally, game mechanics should not prevent either the minority or majority from playing how they want, but it would also be ideal if people ACCEPTED others want to play their own way, there is no right or wrong way to play.
Here is a little hint: the top players don’t care, they do their own thing and make it work for them even if it is “off-meta”, the bottom players do their own thing and have fun, the issue is the elitist wannabes that think “meta or die”
Now this is another argument: I would actually support this, even if it wound up being like it was the kyrian ability with a venthyr (shadow damage) flavor. I am against covenants being open, RP reasons, but abilities I actually want fairly open, as the abilities can be adjusted based on how the covenants are working together.
I would argue that if players that don’t want to swap are trying to force their way into groups with people who do, that’s their own fault? There should be enough of you that want to only play 1 covenant to play with if there is actually an audience for that, no?
Just like somebody who wants to swap would be dumb to go into a group of people that don’t want to and expect them to wait for him to hearth and change builds every boss
It’s a false premise that the only reason people want to swap is to be “meta.” I’m already my BIS covenant, I want to more freely swap away from it to play less meta builds but with the time gated swaps and conduit energy restraints, the game discourages me from doing that so I instead just play a cookie cutter best-for-everything build for the main content I do (CE
/HOF raiding)
It may be a false premise, but it is one based on the ones that seem to scream the loudest about such. I am sure there are those that want to change for reasons not based on meta.
Agreed, but here is the last bit: the kind of player I am working against is the one that would join a group like that then leave telling the entire group that they should quit the game and uninstall.
This group is a very vocal minority, but they are the ones that tend to get pointed at as reasons why things like opening the covenants should not happen.
I should be able to play my way, you should be able to play your way, if we wind up in the same group we should be able to work together and get things done. However, people can’t seem to grasp the simple concept of “different strokes for different folks” . I have nothing against those that want to switch if it means they are having fun their way, I just want to make it clear that if they are unable, or unwilling, to find those with similar attitudes then maybe they need to shut up about others not following their way/the meta.
yep it is call min max !! u min the fun max the dps
Yeah I mean my whole take is mostly that our “stroke” just isn’t in the game resulting in us just playing less. You don’t lose yours from the game should we get “our way”, whereas ours just never made it in.
Totally. I think that’s a horrible approach. It was one I was met with by anti-ripcord people in this thread for giving my feedback on the subject.
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I go back to a previous post:
To summarize, we don’t lose our way to play if yours is put in, but would we be “allowed to play our way” if it was outside the norm?
Your way should be put in, but as long as people try to force others to conform to the desires of the “majority” I would rather it was not. Not out of malice or anything, just out of the simple fact that if people quit rather than conform, then the game loses more players and there is less reason for Blizzard to keep it going. Sadly though, you really should have the option but as long as such options exist, there will be dingbats that think everyone should use that option.
This is true for covenants being locked too, though. And the community doesn’t even have a chance to use it properly like they would if they were unlocked.
I also don’t know how much crossover there really is between people that would never swap with people that actively want to. If anything, WCL and Raider IO has showed raid and dungeon participation to be dominated by people who just want to play the best - upwards of 90% of the same builds per class, and it was more lopsided before the raid content became old. So if part of the point is to increase off-meta participation, I don’t think it worked (or there just isn’t as much of a demand for that as you’d think)
Anyway I think we kind of agree with what we both want, we just see how to get there differently. Appreciate the convo so far.
Unfortunately, such can be skewed by groups only taking those that meet their style or thoughts. Unless one is in a guild or has a set group, people will choose the best they can for pugs.
I think the goal was more getting players to look beyond what is “best” and look at “what can work”. There should be that point where one does not hinder the group with one spec/covenant/etc but also does not make it a sure thing.
To which, at least at the level I play at, I would say we would see more of with less permanent choices because it’s tough for raiders to risk raid throughput for the sake of off-meta experimentation. But since you cannot quickly correct a bad build experiment, people just aren’t experimenting at all until the content is past relevancy.
Personally, I would be trying all kinds of builds and testing off meta more if I could experiment more freely. But the mechanics punishing that, as I’ve said multiple times and I’m sure you’ve read, discourage me from bothering (and thus reducing me to raid log)
All the more reason I think that power should be untied from covenants, the covenants should be RP based, soulbinds able to work with all abilities and the abilities, if locked behind anything, rep based like I am a Venthyr, why could I not approach the Kyrian and learn how to apply a form of divine toll that works off of Ashen Hollow after hitting revered/exaulted? Or tie the Night Fae blessings to friendlies in Ashen Hollow?
Word. I agree.
You’re just going to tell people their opinion is invalid because it doesn’t suit you. Its arguing in bad faith.
It would be like if people started saying that you claiming you want to “play around” and “experiment” isn’t true and that what you really want is to swap to whatever a guide/sim tells you to for each moment of playtime.
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your title should be. " for the four of us that still want covenants unlocked. "
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