Off-GCD Harpoon (with travel time, but still) + Muzzle interrupt? Freezing Trap? Hi-Explosive Trap? Even Survival has decent number of ways to stop the RoF cast.
About Warrior vs Mage:
Whole Mage CC tookit and major defensive CD is just countered.
You just described yourself playing badly
DB sheep and get trinket then kite with alter and if you need more soulshape
Then wait for DB sheep dr and do it again and reset, can get his root breaks in the meantime
You can fireblast mid poly cast to remove spell reflect anyways though so if you’re getting sheeped that’s on you
You can shimmer to avoid literally all of these if you’re from range
Rets are a melee class that can burst you from 30 yds range (Divine Toll, Final Reckoning, Judgement and Hammer of Wrath are all 30 yds range), so being “melee” is not a justification for them. Their “limited” CC is a 6s stun and 6s AoE disorient that doesn’t break on Holy damage, so is almost a stun on separate DR, so I’m not sure about this argument either.
Even if you LoS with it, enemy still has 10 seconds to catch, CC and kill you before it auto-procs. Many classes also can just purge it.
I’m not sure that there are more anti-fear mechanics than anti-poly. Even if it is true, these mechanics are usually a limited duration CD like Lichborne. Druids are entirely immune to Polymorph in animal forms and they spend 80+% of time in them. Also, many things that are immune to Fear are also immune to Polymorph like some Undead.
Maybe it is fixable by some kind of playing, but the argument wasn’t about that. You wrote that Mage toolkit is too powerful and that is the reason why it needs not only general counters like purges / CC / mobility, but also 4+ anticlass specs to them. From what we discuss now, we see, that Mage toolkit is on the level of other classes or is counterable. What is the justification for 4+ anticlasses?
No chastise nerfs GG.
If they’re playing blind to cheese all in that’s 2 1 minute CDs on their CC
Doesn’t come close to comparing to mages toolkit
You can just reactivate it when they catch back up to you. Blink out of line of sight create distance, then if they get there you can just use it for extra mobility if necessary vs purge classes.
Tremor Totem, WoTF, Zerker Rage, Concentration Aura conduit, shorter duration, and warlock fear can’t be cast with shimmer
I feel like 90% of rets I’ve seen in recent months have been necro, who don’t have access to toll and generally run sanctified with is on the same row as fv.
Sure, you can run sera as kyrian with fv and ding somebody who trinkets in a blind but that’s not exactly standard.
It is. They have a limited range of influence.
Again, short range. Freedom, horse and then running 20-30+ yards is a big commitment.
Warrior trinkets and catches you in Kyrian Spear. How would you suggest to kite him then? Abuse the bug when you are pulled back that allows you to leave spear? “Great” solution.
How would Shimmer help against Freezing Trap that has 40 yds range? Ring of Frost itself has 30 yds range, and DB requires you to be <12 yds away from the target initially. So, even if you Shimmer, you are still within Trap range.
Trade alter for spear
It has a travel time, if the hunter throws it from range you can easily see it coming and blink mid cast lol
Ty for taking your time to post this, if you guys could look at DHs as well would be great.
PS: stop arguing with Vislal, he’s on a level 10 for a reason.
At least you don’t argue that they are not exactly a melee class.
6s stun + 6s “stun” is arguably better than combination of spammable CC that heals your target in 1v1 and DB that is used mainly to just set it up in 1v1. For every Frost Nova root they have Blessing of Freedom. But even assume you are right about that. Let’s say they have not as good CC toolkit, but have insane self-healing that Mages cannot even reduce and it is not on CD like Mage shields. Why would then Ret’s bubble be normal, but Ice Block a “tool that requires many anticlasses to Mages to keep them in line”?
If you reactivate it before they deal damage, you lose its healing aspect making it just one more Blink. Does it make it a “tool that requires many anticlasses to Mages to keep them in line”?
But you do prove my point - those are CDs or limited effects like Aura. Do we have a class that is immune to Fear most of the time like Druids are to Polymorph? Is Poly a “tool that requires many anticlasses to Mages to keep them in line”?
You get perfect value on alter and entirely save yourself that way if you’re playing against comps that have purges, you make it so they cannot get a go and if they chase you into a bad spot they either risk throwing the game or you can just get away from them immediately after
If he’s playing blind in a 1v1 you can just keep your distance pretty easily, rets aren’t going to be able to stop you from shimmer sheeping them or just normal sheeping them from distance as they waddle up to you, and you can get max range again during polymorphs
Super easy to play vs a ret 1v1 as a mage if this is what you’re inferring, it’s entirely your fault if you ever are losing
Dnno man mage might not be for you, can’t really say other classes need to adapt when you don’t even know how they work well enough to play against them and your counterplays don’t have an opposite reaction that solve anything.
Yes polymorph is that good
You still didn’t answer my question. Is Alter Time with all its counters and being purgeable a reason to have 4+ anticlass specs to Mages in addition to general counters like purge / CC / interrupts?
How do you suggest to keep distance in let’s say a BG if you try to attack / defend a point? If you would constantly run from him, he or his teammates will just cap / decap it.
I do know how other classes work, so I don’t argue with many of your points. However, you actually prove my main point - Mages have tools that are counterable by other classes and can be covered by Mage to prevent that, just like other classes. What makes them also require 4+ anticlasses to be in line?
And no, Poly, which has its own counters, Druid immunity and healing its target is not enough.
It’s seriously just druids and hunters
Spriest can purge spam you, you can also play around purge spam pretty well
This is the arena forums lol, but then you work with your other team mates too, you want to be able to just do everything perfectly in every single situation?
Not really, things like getting purge spammed the mage has complete control over the situation, it is your fault for allowing that to happen
I mean you even said things like getting trapped on a cast from max range, that sort of just shows bad awareness on mage if you’re letting that happen
And again when it comes to arena no class entirely rules the metagame like mage. I think when it comes to a competitive environment which is being discussed it makes little sense to constantly talk about 1v1 or a random battleground interaction.
DKs and Shadow Priests are as well.
And one major question - if I even lock Shadow Priest on Shadow school and try to Combust him he will just purge it. He doesn’t use castable Holy spells to lock Holy school. You suggest me to line him to prevent it being purged. How would I then do damage to him and utilize my Combust go if he doesn’t see me and I don’t see him? Yes, it is “definitely my fault to allow it being purged”.
I don’t want a Mage to be a perfect solution to everything, I want him to be in a similar power level to other classes 1v1. Having 4+ counters doesn’t help that.
Mage doesn’t always have complete control of being purged in 1v1 and mentioned example shows that.
You’re back to talking about a 1v1, either set up a kill window on him in arena with him in a stun, or just cc him and kill someone else
If you’re in an arena and you have either of those conditions not withstanding, that’s on you and you’ve done a completely awful bust
If you want mage to be god tier in 1v1 then they have to become way worse than arena
I mean like you want to talk about other classes in 1v1 settings but warriors are quite terrible in 1v1s, mages are arguably better than them and you want to discuss them in a 1v1 setting, but in arena both of these classes are massive staples of the game.
You’re meant to cross/line.
You could be busting his partner, and if you’re busting him then he’s hopefully in a stun. Yolobusting in the face of something with a purge and cointossing whether or not it gets ripped off is (usually) a feed play.
That’s generally how it goes, yes.
just to add
fear :
range is 30 yards in 20s pve/6s pvp doesn’t heal the target and resist some damage
polimorph:
range is 30 yards 60s pvE/ 8s pvp it heals you and is breakable in damage
each sharing DR with other 18 ccs
polymorph sharing DR with ring of frost(1 spamable)
fear sharing DR with seduction (both spamable)
polymorph is not making fire good, nor ice block, nor blink, or ring of frost; arcane and frost have them too and they are meh specs
instants and dragon breath is what makes fire strong nothing else.
I mean that and the other mage specs are just really undertuned/just missing so many pieces in their design now (arcane for example)
Frost has more potential to be competitive but it also gets countered by fire and sort of has since BfA which makes it really lame to be a frost mage to begin with
Overall just base mage toolkit though has been solid enough for years to make them competitive
I was talking about 1v1 the whole time. As you keep saying that this is arena sub-section - okay, let’s say it is a 2v2 arena. I killed one of them and they killed my partner as well. I am left 1v1, so this situation can happen in rated arenas. I am vs a Shadow Priest. Who is gonna stun him for me? Whom am I to kill if I CC him? Mage CC is breakable on damage.
I don’t want mages to be godtier 1v1, I want them to be on the level of other classes. Which other class has 4+ anticlasses?
And as I knew that this argument would appear - once again, why is Feral and Rogue very good in both 1v1 and XvX, but Mage should pick one? Rogue is even in the same comp - RMP - so even comp efficiency difference is not an argument.
@ Jayne - it is about 1v1. If I CC him and try to do damage, the CC would instantly fall off - Mage doesn’t have unbreakable CC. If I line him with Combustion popped, I don’t do damage to him and even make his job easier - why spend Mana to purge Mage’s Combustion if he is himself hiding from you and does not use it to do damage? Who am I to hit instead if it is 1v1?
And no, in 1v1, when you pop Combustion, you can’t control purges against SP. You either try to burst him and he spams Dispel Magic and whatever number of buffs and shields you have he has still a chance to yoink it (they don’t cover it completely, they simply reduce the chance of it being purged) or you LoS him and just waste the Combustion. Definitely “my fault of being purged”.
Ya except mages have more comps they can play at a high level than rogues so irrelevant point
Ok cool good thing competitively in arenas if this happens then you’re bad
Then they have to be worse in a competitive environment wow, incredible
Don’t let the game get to a 1v1 to begin with, or when you do send your bust set it up so you have a few trash buffs to cover yourself and get enough meaningful globals. Alter time, have your shield, have arcane intellect, and blink for the conduit shield too
You can get a punish situation in dampening by just resetting on them in a 1v1 in arena, they can waste their globals trying to purge and if they get bad rng the games over for them