Fire Mage and Enhancement Shaman PvP Tuning - March 15

When it is proven, it is admittable. When you aren’t - nope.

i just tested it and tinder fireblast into pyro into fire blast pyro into fireblast pyro does 80k damage minimum in like 3 seconds it looks like you were just pulling numbers out of thin air

Not really. For example, if you give Fire Mages a PVP talent to change Poly into an analogue of Fear (6s base duration, but no longer heals the target) or Hex (8s duration with 15-20s CD attached with same no healing) and it is already a big step to make them better in 1v1 (so you can try to wear down enemies instead of just running away waiting for Combustion to reset to try to smoke them). This talent will make Mages stronger in 1v1, but is hardly a good choice for 3v3 - shorter duration or CD on Polymorph will make the CC setup of RMP shorter duration and more vulnerable to CC-ed enemy recovering and breaking the go. Other option is to give some instant hard CC, but I’m not sure about that.

Casters have been designed to require melee to set up for them, shadowpriest have the unique strength of being one of the casters that are very independent

Are you sure about that?
Warlock can setup himself with Mortal Coil / Axe Toss into Fear spam.
Druid can setup himself with Bash or Incap Roar into Cyclone Spam.
Shaman has lasso which is a setup for other members of team.
Priest you covered yourself.
The only caster spec left is Mage. Fire can DB + Poly, but poly heals his target, so even if you use it to cast a greater pyro, target will often heal more health than take damage from it. RoF is a 45s CD. Frost and Arcane Mages have no instant CC cover, so have trouble with setting it all up.
So, why is Mage left at the bottom here? RMP argument doesn’t work as Rogue is a member of it and does not lack hard and instant CC either.

Hmm, so you even agreed with my position later in your post. i literally ask to just give Fire Mages an Improved Polymorph PVP talent or any hard CC. Making him less vulnerable to purges, even at the cost of losing a part of his current survivabilty is other thing that could be done.

Not really. Is that the reason you kept saying about Mage being an important member of RMP as a justification for it to be not as good as Rogue in 1v1, who is a member of the same comp in XvX? You repeated that in last 5-10 posts in different forms. Any other arguments?

Exclude Tinder, it is an additional cast time that is pulled out of the mentioned 3.5s burst.

Did you also test in PVP on a target with 30+% Versa?

DB is on the same DR as fear lol

Good thing mage plays to 100-0 lol, super irrelevant

Also saying only db sheep when that’s one of the best set ups in the game

I could agree with this, I think mage 1v1 comes down to class knowledge of each matchup and the experience behind the mage vs the other play.

That being said, I don’t lose 1v1s. Whether its cross kills in 2s, durotar, random encounters in bgs. My notoriety in durotar speaks for itself.

Mage doesn’t lose to much 1v1 besides like a DK running AMS tank heal leggo with spell eater. I genuinely can’t outplay that thing

Even necrolord feral I can stalemate to duel timer and in 2s I can usually bait them into open further in dampening and finish them. Blazing soul does work

Mage is probally the best 1v1 class in game in most settings, if your playing at peak not much beats it 1v1. Ret pallies and tryhard SV hunter camo resetting with craven and necrolord ferals are probally the only true eternal stalemate match ups in a non dampen setting.

Polymorph remains an Incap effect. Please read the suggestion more carefully.

Mage plays 100-0 and that puts him in disadvantage against many other classes. Your first Combustion they will survive with defensives from Turtle to Netherwalk. You will survive their first burst CD as well with your defensives. What happens later is Mage tries to kite and hide and reset his Combustion to try to kill again. What other class tries to do? Just kill the Mage. So, Mage is in disadvantage of being hardly able to kill and instead kiting and resetting for 60 seconds to have 12 seconds of glory to try to kill his target if it is out of defensives, purges and CC to stop the go. So, 60 / 72 seconds his enemy has an advantage and 12 / 72 seconds Mage has an arguable advantage. Would you call that situation “balanced”? If yes, would you like your class Hunter to receive similar treatment with being able to kill only when Coordinated Assault / Bestial Wrath / True Shot is active and kite and reset them all other time while also throwing spammable Freezing Trap to CC that would also heal them?

This 100-0 playstyle makes him also a point of nerf threads by people who got smoked by Combustion. Well, every universe needs a villain…

I mean hunter functions entirely different from mage

But when hunters played MM or times where hunters 100-0’d people that wouldn’t matter at all to me lol

When Hunters 100-0ed people, they still had instant CC that is not beneficial for their target like Polymorph - Freezing Trap and Scatter Shot at the very least. This is not the case for Mage.

Playstyle is different, but tell me from objective PoV - having advantage 17% of time while your enemy has it 83% of time is an advantageous or disadvantageous situation for your class?

Kyrian hunter burst in early shadowlands could 100-0 you but the burst was far clunkier, requiring 3 globals before damage started happening, so even if you’re using scatters to cross the CC ends by that time

The only other time was WoD BM which 100-0d people and did not have scatter shot only freezing trap for CC

Idk man

I think most of your issues stem from not really understanding the game or mage very well

Three instant globals are not much of a deal. You remember pre-Shadowlands, when both Combustion and Rune of Power were on separate GCDs? Mages lived with that.

BM is also much easier to kite with than Mage. Almost all your toolkit is instant, uninterruptible and usable on the move (compared to Fire Mage, whose instant part is mainly Combustion and all its reset is done with stationary hard casted interruptible Fireballs). Also, while you kite, your pet(s) can continue dealing damage to the target.

You refer to understanding - what in my post about how Fire Mages do their 1v1 seems incorrect? Setback also confirmed that it is the way Fire Mages 1v1 in other thread.

They are at a high level lmao

3 globals that do 0 damage before your burst starts is a massive deal against competent players, especially when it’s 3 globals before a channel that people just need to stop to prevent the damage

Not even close to comparable, and you just played encanters

He literally just typed in this thread that fire mages are not even a bad class in 1v1 lol

Yeah, they are. It telegraphs the whole setup. By contrast you have holy rmp crossing your entire team on the same global then mage immediately sending bust.

Is it such a big difference that you setup your go with instant GCDs, people notice that and start preparing to use defensives or counter it (your example) from just starting the go instantly, when people are aware that the go would happen (they see stun DRs and CD of your Combustion with addons) and just press them the moment you pop the CD and they see you on fire or even preemptively (current Combustion)? Yes, time of these 3 GCD matters and you can be counter CC-ed in them, but you can also be CCed the moment you pop Combustion. What is the principal difference?

Setting up your burst with 2 GCD, one of which is castable is very comparable to setting up your burst with 3 instant GCDs. Not sure that everyone played IF.

He did the same response in other thread. He also wrote that to do that you need to kite/peel/survive for 5-15 minutes and sometimes live through several failed Combustion goes, especially against some classes like Necro Feral. All this time people just try to kill you. Would you call this matchup (83% of time advantage for Mage’s enemy and 17% of time arguable advantage for Mage) balanced for both sides of conflict?

He also wrote that you often need to be much better than your opponent to win, so average Mage vs average representatives of some other classes is usually a loss.

It’s a massive difference man

Before the CC chain even starts you know that they want to do the go because you have to basically pre commit damage before your DRs are even used, and the person you’re going to kill has a debuff on them committed too. 4.5 second heads up before DRs can be used lol

You don’t do that as a mage, you commit your DRs then get to CC

Completely different situation lol

No, you can’t be. Enemy team is sheeped, feared and stunned.

Trinkets? Yes, wasting all 3 is an auto-loss, but if there is even 1 the go is not too hard to shut down.

While at least 1 of you has a trinket, you can try to catch RMP in-between. I remember that all of you said that RMP are hard to catch and punish, I don’t argue with that. But what it has to do to Combustion being instant?

And okay, setting up with GCDs is worse. But how does that justify troubles that Fire Mages might have 1v1? In 1v1 it is not much different whether you setup the burst with 1 GCD or 3 - enemy knows that you would use your burst on him no matter how many buttons you need to press and prepares for that.

The spec doesn’t struggle 1v1.

Yeah, you’re telegraphing that you’re setting up, and opening up the possibility that they peel it with defensives, mobility, crowd control, etc, if you’re actually committing something.

Whereas Mage just sends bust and if you don’t’ have your finger on the trigger then you just get chunked.

Bro fire mages are really good 1v1

They’re actually far better than MM hunters were when they played Kyrian MM anyways so idk what your point is really

It’s a huge difference because they have that much time to prepare and react and those globals

Far harder to react to a bust lol

Has disadvantage in 1v1 against many classes = struggles with them and in general with his playstyle of “Combust and run for 1 minute” <> “is bad” though.

Why don’t you have your finger on defensive trigger when you know that Mage has Combustion and hadn’t used it yet in 1v1?

Why you also don’t take into account breakable CC as a preventive measure? Let’s compare even Fire Mage and Kyrian Arcane Mage. They both should Poly target first before starting the go. Fire throws a Frost spell, pops Combustion and starts bursting. Arcane puts a Touch of the Magi which doesn’t break Polymorph, then casts a Radiant Spark that would break it, pops Arcane Power and starts the go. Even though his setup took longer time, it doesn’t matter as all this time enemy was in breakable CC and when it breaks both are already popping. Even if he would have trinketed, he could pop the same defensive to prevent both Fire’s burst and Arcane’s burst.

@ Dillon - a similar point. If you would just use Freezing Trap on enemy and pop all these 3 GCDs and then break it, is it much different from popping 1 GCD and breaking it? If he trinkets, he would counter both 1 GCD setup and 3 GCD setup.

Is it even such a crime to ask for a different playstyle opened that is on more fair terms like my request for Improved Polymorph talent? It will allow Mages to actually try killing things between Combustions instead of just running and resetting it, but nerfs to its duration or CD attached will make the Mage peel less and more vulnerable himself.