Final Thread on Paladin Mobility (Wings of Liberty/Avenging Leap)

Classes Paladin
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They really couldn’t stand the idea of making this class fun, could they?

I think that’s my single biggest gripe with Divine Steed. Sure, it sucks. Sure, it makes our mobility worse than every other melee spec.

But I could forgive all that, if it wasn’t so damn BORING.

I can ride a horse as much as I want if I step outside. Except I don’t, because we all fly dragons now.

Is it really so much to ask to be able to move in a way that’s interesting? You know, like pretty much every semi-powerful NPC paladin?

“We want to keep ret’s mobility a weakness because we want classes to lean into their strengths”

BRO WHAT STRENGTHS!? Warriors hit harder, move better, bring a raid buff, and heal themselves more without sacrificing all of their dps to cast the soggy band-aid that is WoG.

I let myself get excited about the leap. I know that was stupid, but the prospect make me realize how unbelievably dull our kit is compared to pretty much everyone else.

I just wanted to have some fun.

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42

Out of many of my threads and response comments, the one area I fail to bring up often enough is the fun factor.

Mobility is fun. Creating classes that are anti-mobility will always leave them feeling less fun by comparison to all other classes.

I have always disregarded the inherit strength/weakness argument for class design. Primarily best outlined by these two examples:

Enhancement Shamans for a long time were viewed as the equal opposite of Retribution Paladins. Enhancement Shamans were the ONLY other melee specialization to not have access for a gap closer. Fast forward to now, they have access to Feral Lunge. Even more, Spirit Walk or Gust of Wind now as well too.

It could be argued that because of the hybridity of Enhancement Shaman gameplay, mobility needed to be a weakness. This is of course, no longer the case. Most importantly, did granting Enhancement Shamans Feral Lunge make them overpowered or break the game? No.

This is also a good argument for the comment of Wings of Liberty just being a warrior ability. Is Feral Lunge for Enhancement Shamans not just Feral Leap for Feral Druids? Why is one allowed by the other is not?

The next example is Arms Warriors. Historically, they can do it all. In fact, they can do it all so well, that their inherit weakness needed to be self-sustain (healing). This is hardly the case these days. Impending Victory, Pain and Gain and Ignore Pain say hello.

Many feel not adding Wings of Liberty is a mistake for this rework. According to Morgan Day in the interview, Paladin mobility often comes up within their team as well. There is a reason for that. It is a dated philosophy. Add this to the overwhelming number of player feedback responses for Paladin mobility and it makes me ask, what more needs to happen to get Blizzard to change?

We want an even mobility playing field in relation to all other melee specializations. We want fun.

Great post and the perspective is also greatly appreciated!

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43

Honestly for the sake of being unique I’m okay with not having a leap. But I understand the sentiment for wanting one. I see it as a larger problem with the game though. If we just make Paladins bad warriors then they will be just that, a bad warrior.

Every recent class added to wow has added to insane mobility creep issues. Monk/DH/Evoker are obvious. DK less so but Death Grip is still ‘mobility’ and affects the whole game.

Paladins having a kit that doesn’t scale well is an issue sure, but I believe mobility across the board is an issue. Why do all these mobility buttons have the option for 2 charges? (Shimmer, Death Grip, Roll, Steed, Shadowstep, Charge, Port+Gate (sort of), Fel Rush)

There’s something inherently wrong with this. Unfortunately a class needs to be at the bottom of the mobility tree and Paladin is in that spot (maybe DK). But filling the gap by homogenizing the classes isn’t the right direction I think.

Mobility just needs an overhaul. Some ideas after tuning it down could be to reward more mobility behind certain play. Not sure if this style of stuff is in the game besides generic cd reduction abilities:

  • landing interrupts reduces cd by X
  • dodging interrupts reduce cd by X
  • spending X combo points during sprint increases duration by Y
  • out of combat mobility resets X% faster
  • every X rage spent reduces cd on charge
  • every second enemy sits cc reduce cd by X, or increase range by Y
  • if enemy sits a 10 sec cc chain, allow mobility to be used twice within 5 seconds
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44

Agree. If it’s too much for PvE then make it a PvP talent. A choice node with Divine Steed seems the best compromise.

1 Like
45

Some players share a lot of your feedback points here. I even sometimes wonder why all classes have access to two charges of mobility cooldowns. But completely shifting that dynamic of the game is out of my pay grade and expertise.

I can say though, that I disagree with a few of your points specifically pertaining to Paladin mobility.

Adding a leap to Paladins would not really cause them to become more Warrior-like. A charge effect would be the bigger culprit for that kind of scenario.

Did Enhancement Shamans become more Druid-like with the addition of Feral Lunge? No.

Paladins having a kit that does not scale well is an issue. This is directly resulting from the fact that we are the only melee specialization without access to a gap closer. No amount of other mobility improvement solution types would ever be a substitute for this niche.

If mobility is a problem across the board, that should be further testament to how underwhelming Paladin’s current situation really is in relation.

I also do not understand why you and some others believe that a class needs to be at the bottom of the mobility tree. In the sense that some will have less options than others, or that mobility is more central to the design of a class, I can understand the argument. But outright denying Retribution Paladins a gap closer while every other melee spec has access to one is wrong.

Plus, as you say, if every other class already has similar tools for closing gaps, the homogenizing of classes is already complete. Retribution joining the club would have no effect on this.

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46

I mean, have you considered the possibility that every other class having gap closers and high mobility is already the problem? Maximum homogenization of classes kills mmorpgs, and while it may be the most efficient solution to give ret more mobility to be equal to the rest of the melee there may be a better long term answer in addressing things like extreme mobility needs in pve (mythic raz) and the grotesque amount of cc present in pvp.

There is another answer too, some specs could get their mobility nerfed in order to level the playing field in a way that doesnt create all melee having the same mobility. Blizz is just loathe to take a risk like this as people always rage over their personal nerfs and never have enough perspective to see the health of the game as a whole.

47

How can u have a class with angel wings with several examples of it leaping or even “gliding” with a slow fall effect, but not have any actual playable version of that. This is literally just another prime example of how “NPC classes” are cooler and make more sense in almost every way than the player versions of these classes. And in terms of game mechanics, it needs this bad. Divine steed not only looks bad because it’s forced to use an extremely pitifully bad looking mount in most cases, but it’s also just bad as it is.

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48

or the time they were gonna go by the ability back in legion that was tyreal from heros of the storm ability throwing a sword down and teleporting to it forgot the name of the ability but it was highlighted and never made it live just like wings of liberty instead we get a 3 yard range that rogues have or feral druids but here we are on the roller coaster again over a gap closer that literally every melee but paladins.

Had total rework said they wern’t done with mobility but we get blessing of freedom movement spell which is no different then steed like is this the long time coming long arm of the law watered down coming back but in a baked in blessing of freedom it sounds like it too me while every single class in the game has a charge ability but no ones saying its restricted to warriors only because it has another animation looks different does the exact same thing “gap closer.”

Like rets damage isn’t on the same scale as certain classes if it was they wouldn’t be getting a total rehaul on there talents something that hasn’t happened since the class was first put in the game even there defense hasn’t been anything to shine on about so where’s the strengths in the class we all play the game we all are able to speak our opinion especially with how broken ret has been as of late and everyone pays a premium to play at the mercy of developers and feedback that gets outright ignored.

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49

Considering many other classes besides warrior (outlaw, demon hunters, even goblins) have leap abilities, the rationale that paladins shouldn’t be given an ability “unique to warriors” seems like an explanation generated after the decision was already made.

I’m sad paladins won’t get Wings of Liberty, it would have rebooted the class for me.

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50

It truly does seem like something suddenly changed with our rework.

The first several weeks and builds were much different than what we have now. You can tell from the early weeks, that a lot of passion was going into the design. This includes our maneuverability and mobility additions as well. Things like the datamining for Wings of Liberty and the additional range granted by Crusader Aura.

I cannot help but feel we were very close this time. Then on a dime, the directional order was given to pull back on the total scope of our rework.

The one thing that still does not sit right with me, is Blizzard mentioning that more was coming with respect to our mobility package and that we should expect to see more information in the coming weeks.

Wings of Liberty would have absolutely rebooted the class for me as well. I have played Wow nearly my entire life and primarily through a Retribution Paladin. These kinds of decisions carry much more weight than is sometimes realized.

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51

I am sure a lot of people would say “Why does one ability make that big of a difference?”
The reality is we play a game for the fun factor, the excitement when we press the buttons, we love being able to have to make choices and see them in engaging ways.

Wings of Liberty, Crash of Light, whatever they wanted to call it, would have brought a new dynamic to the class. A means of being able to make that split decision to get out of harm, leap to a friend, or enemy.

Our blind now breaks on holystrike abilities and it is incredibly fragile to randome aoe. not to mention that its on a 1.5 min cd.

What Wings of Liberty/Crash of light would have done would give us a 2 second blind on top of a leap. The argument that “This is a warrior ability” Can be 100% countered since Wings of Liberty/Crash of light did NOT deal damage, it would /could have blinded, providing utility to the paladin and their allies. It could have easily Blinded the enemy for 2 seconds and healed their ally for 2% health. ANYTHING like that would have seperated Heroic Leap from Wings of Liberty.

They STILL have time, they still can do this. But will they is the question.

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52

The warrior ability that demon hunters have, hunters and rogues have a kind of version of, and paladins use all throughout your legion followers, yrel in cutscenes, yrel as a HoTS main ability, but sure a WARRIOR ability.

I would also like to say that while warriors are supposed to be super soldiers, lore wise they’re literally just basic and paladins are pretty much straight upgrades, the only thing they have a slight edge in is perhaps swordplay practice, but even thats debatable, priests have more mastery of the light (or shadow) but paladins will always hit hard and have more tools in their tool box, they may supplement raw human actions through use of divine power but man with a huge sword smacking something versus man swinging a big sword with the power of the light imbued, the latter will always be better, same with death knights being stronger then warriors, demon hunters being stronger than warriors, the only slight comparison would be rogues to warriors and at that point its dexterity versus strength.

To say that a WARRIOR ability is unavailable to paladins is usually understandable, no Paladin is asking for shattering throw or to play exactly like a warrior, but something that has a fair comparison is completely fine, though its ironic they say that as they try to make ret play close to arms, regardless though it has lore precedence, players want it, there’s paladins already using it, etc snd so on, just add pally heroic leap/aka avenging leap aka wings of liberty

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53

Its not even a warrior ability demon hunters have a two charge heroic leap, rogues have grappling hook, hunters have a version I believe, different classes have a version of leap, no one wants an exact copy of leap but its ridiculous to call the concept of a leap a warrior ability

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54

The answer is quit playing your ret paladin and make a warrior… every time you go to log into your ret pally don’t . Play a warrior that’s the only thing they see is when a class just quits being played because it’s just not fun to be 2nd place at best to every other melee spec out there.

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What if they added Wings of Liberty jump as a PvP talent? Give it a 90 secs cd. That’s not op at all and you give up a talent to do so. Could at least start there and see how it works out… Buff accordingly.

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56

Would be boring, suddenly pallys are all playing un war mode, similar thing happened when unbound freedom was/is a pvp talent, makes you extremely miss it in pve encounters, just not really fun to think about, unlike something like dragon charge thats just weird, that being said if I had no other choice id take it as a pvp talent then nothing

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57

Another area really worth attempting to flesh out and address for the developers would be the choice node element to Wings of Liberty.

If Wings of Liberty is a choice node competing with Divine Steed, I do not believe this even breaks down the dev team’s current vision of Paladin’s having a mobility weakness.

Choosing one ability over the other helps maintain a soft “cap” on Paladin mobility.

Having access to Divine Steed and Wings of Liberty likely is too much mobility. But a targeted leap itself is not a design philosophy breaking trade-off. Instead of moving at 100% increased speed for 4-6 secs, you choose to instantly land at a targeted area on the same cooldown frequency. You would lose out on the movement speed increase window for picking up a gap closer instead.

Paladins not having easy access to snares and maintaining a Blessing of Freedom that can be dispelled is what will help stay accurate to the current mobility design philosophy for Retribution specifically. In a PvP environment, all of our snares, blessings and stun are magic schools that can be dispelled. Having the option to pick up Wings of Liberty will not remove Retribution from having weaker mobility/uptime compared to nearly every other melee option.

It will, however, re-ignite a massive element of excitement for the Paladin class. Especially in the aftermath of a re-work where it benefits from being capitalized on the most!

Let’s bring Paladins up to speed in the modern World of Warcraft.

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58

I like this idea, and fully support it. However I feel Blizz won’t go for it because they really like us having only divine steed and love it for some reason.

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59

Somebody high up just doesn’t like Ret, at all.
I mean early builds were looking great, like some low level guy was really trying to make Ret cool, trying to really show what they could do for the class.

And then when it went to the higher up for finalization, they took one look at it and started slashing stuff, it reeks of contempt for the spec.

Whoever it is, you’ll never get your due while they are around, that much is clear.

3 Likes
60

I don’t think it something that nefarious(though I wouldn’t be surprised neither) I think its the community, not the Ret community(though there’s some). But the WoW community itself(or just those that play the other classes specifically).
See Blizzard does listen to a point as a whole, and Ret voices are very quiet compared to the cacophony of screams that come from the rest of the community.

As I once pointed out, you should have seen the insane hysterics other class players went into over mere notion Ret might get and instant gap closer. The usual rubbish claims of homogenization or overpowered.

The Paladin community wasn’t much better(though I suspect they’re not pally mains). With “paladins aren’t supposed to leap or teleport” and are usually the same one saying “A mount appearing out of nowhere is dumb and makes no sense”(While they mount up on a flying mount the comes out nowhere). Then there’s the “Long Arm of the Law is the ultra bestest mobility that has ever existed” crowd. Lastly there was the current ones, who think having near everything hitting out to 20 yards and beyond is good enough(and the main reason Blizzard thinks Rets mobility is perfectly fine). Despite explaining to them why its not.

One other thing I will add is, I don’t think Blizzard knows what to do with Paladins. It’s like all the cool effective mobility abilities went the other classes. And what’s left for Ret?, basically nothing other then your basic generic hold down the W key speed increases. I suspect its the same reasoning as to why paladins started out basically having no attack abilities, because strikes, special attacks and what not where something warriors and rogue did.

(The same thing happens to Shamans, can’t do that, that’s fire mage, can’t do this, that frost mage. Wind and storm themed abilities, opp sorry that’s all druids. Even though Shamans are supposed to be wielders of the elements).

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