Final Thread on Paladin Mobility (Wings of Liberty/Avenging Leap)

For anyone who has not seen, a recent interview with Blizzard developers has them stating that they are in fact NOT adding a leap or any other mobility improvements for this rework in 10.0.7.

I want to first say thank you to everyone who passionately fought for this ability over the past 3-4 months. We put up an amazing fight to finally put Retribution and hopefully all Paladin specializations on a more even playing field that is fun and thematically appropriate.

Way back in December, before the rework was even announced, I made my first thread titled Avenging Leap: The Fix for Paladin Mobility. This post ended up creating a good discussion covering all the topics you know will come up when you attempt to address Paladin mobility. The post even ended up receiving nearly 60 likes. I put some of my best effort into crafting an ability that checked all the boxes and did my best to address all points of view from the response section.

Fast forwarding to the announcement of our rework, the first Blizzard comment on mobility through their blue post was that we should temper our expectations, and that we should not expect to gain the mobility of rogues. I was a bit disappointed, but hope was still there.

After the following blue posts, addressing that more was to come in our mobility toolkit, my optimism kept growing. Comments like “we aren’t done with maneuverability yet” led to this big time. Match this up with datamining for Wings of Liberty, it’s easy to see how many players would get excited.

All of this to say, I am shocked that Blizzard finally landed on not adding in any mobility option for Paladin specifically Ret in the form of a gap closer. I believe without a doubt this is the WRONG choice. I understand the logic, of classes playing into certain strengths/weaknesses, but this was not the appropriate circumstance to use that logic.

We will be worse in PvP when it pertains to mobility come patch 10.0.7.

Perhaps the biggest issue throughout this entire journey, was Blizzard consistently saying more was coming with respect to maneuverability and Ret’s overall mobility package.

After going back and re-reading their blue posts, seeing how they decided to stop addressing mobility in their follow up blue posts after saying they would have more to share in the coming weeks, I can not help but feel some contempt.

This was wrong. This was unprofessional. Worst of all, this was the wrong final decision for the future of the Paladin class and especially Retribution.

With all of that being said, this go around for Paladin mobility was the strongest I have ever seen it from the player base. More so than the ability from the Legion alpha/beta. For any other Paladins out there who are going to be greatly disappointed and discouraged with this result, at least we can all take pride that we fought every step of the way this time.

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I mean I can get why people are upset, but I do think now that we are a mid-range class and our survivability is better it will offset not having a gap closer better than most think.

With a dispellable freedom our mobility may be worse in pvp come 10.0.7, but on the flipside I think Ret will be better overall in pvp come 10.0.7, despite everyone, including me, not getting what we want.

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It seemed fair to not get a new gap close in the face of long range of abilities and some improvements to steed.

However I’m worried about PvP after seeing some posts that they removed freedom dispel protection (is the still the PvP talent?), as well as losing hand of hindrance and the PvP talent that applies it on BoJ. It remains to be seen how the long range will compensate. It can see how it potentially can help with defensive play, although again with dispellable hand and everyone’s mobility it might be difficult. More experienced PvP players might chime in more.

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Was planning on keeping my sub going if the leap was added or at least some kind of cool mobility button. Now I’m not going to bother

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Eh I think it was a shot in the dark that WoL would have been a thing.

However I’d still like to see some sort of dispel protection for BoF in our pvp talents

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3 yards increase on most abilities and a 10 yard increase on Final Verdict is in no way shape or form going to make up for it.
Ret’s snare as been reduced from 70% to 30%, Unbound Freedom will be instantly dispelled like everything paladins do. So no more 30% runs speed. And Divine Steed is still countered by every single Snare, Root, Knockback and Crowd Control in the game.
Oh but Ret has Hallowed Ground, which doesn’t work with either Consecrated Blade or Divine Hammer.

I suspected it wasn’t going to happen once the second week of updates came out. I doubt they even put one drop of development time into it other than the name.

No going to happen at this point, even if it did, that would be one pathetically weak but near mandatory pvp talent. It would be massively better if they gave Ret Steed of Glory.

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“You should temper your expectations” you mean doing the same thing that we have been doing for you guys since the damn start of the game when it came to our class? What good does it add to our kit that we get 3-5 extra yards on our damage abilities if we cant GET to those 3-5 yards in the first place.

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I mean yea all those things you listed suck, but the uptime on the 30% snare will be nearly 100%. I very much prefer it over Hindrance which is functionally just worse and more difficult to maintain. Our snare coupled the fact we have better survivability and decent range I think will put us in a relatively competitive spot alone. Almost certainly not top-tier, but competitive.

That being said, I do think we got over-nerfed this ptr development cycle so I’m very interested in seeing next weeks development notes.

I havent heard jack on new pvp talents either, so really holding out hope for a little help there as well.

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Did people actually expect wings of liberty to make it to live? It reeks of development experimentation. I dont think we’ll get ti see how well this rework actually is until 10.1 tbh.

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While we have a lot of fun new mechanics, the simple fact for pvp here is that the game is now fast pace and people get globled in seconds.

Leaving Ret in the position it is now will have serious consequences if their survivability isn’t drastically upheld. Warlock is able to not give a damn about mobility due to its vast array of CC’s and Tanking capabilities coupled with their range and pets.

Ret will not have that, ret relies heavily on being on their target, to gather meaningful damage, holy power and procs that can provide healing and survivability, couple this with dispellable magic abilities buffs and ret is NO better off than it is now on live.

Damage feels good, rotation and burst feels good, but all of that means NOTHING in pvp when you have perma slows from warlock/dk/mage/warrior/hunter. It means NOTHING when you have characters capable of blinking, vanishing, dashing, teleporting, leaping, grappling away.

The sad part is blizz is going to go with this (if they do) and only after a month or the next patch will they realize everything that people have said about how bad this is going in without mobility improvements are going to be, and only then will they do the same exact cycle they do every time.

Start something new> community provides good feedlback>blizz takes some and leave out vital others>crowd complains and tries to help them see why>blizz ignores> new thing is live> people complain, vow to leave, have “i told you so” moments> blizz sees an error and corrects it next patch or ignores it and makes damage improvements.

The community is LITERALLY telling you that this is going to be bad for ret, that this is NOT the direction you said you were going in, in your OWN outline.

And these devs wonder why the community is really tired of this.

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Its dispellable(like everything paladins do), so that up time will be greatly reduced. Law and Order allowed Hand of Hindrance to be maintain a bit more often and reapplied with Art of War procs and Blade of Justice. Making it much more difficulty to keep dispelled. With Judgement of Justice it only takes one dispel every 9ish seconds. Yes Hindrance only lasted 3 seconds with Law and Order and Blade of Justice, but its a powerful 70% snare. Making those limited 3 seconds really count. Which I believe you’ll find works out to be around near the same distance reduction an opponent will be able to move compared with the 30% snare with 100% uptime(not quite, Judgement Justice works out a bit better). Add in resets from Art of War and Hand of Hindrance starts pulling a little out ahead. Add in dispels and Hand of Hindrance with procs and well you start to see the picture.

The other factor to consider is player perception. A 3 second snare isn’t going to feel as annoying compared to a near permanent snare, especially when no dispel is available. Leading to less perceived notions of being overpowered and potentially less likely to lead to nerfs.

And Jack is probably what will happen, Unless they do something radical like give Ret Steed of Glory. Which would Huge.

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knights should never be a mid ranged class…

considering all of our lore charecters use it… yes.

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Educate me plz

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Well said.

PvP is a completely different environment compared to PvE. I do not do any PvE content at all and will not pretend I know how our rework really impacts that content for Retribution.

I can assume, however, based on a good amount of feedback on the forums, that it seems to be a minor improvement overall for dungeons and raids in the eyes of players.

PvP, on the other hand, is not coming out improved with this rework.

My best examples to help shine a light on problem areas are as follows:

In arena, you will consistently have to “burn” a Blessing of Freedom to get full value out of Divine Steed. If we had a leap instead, we would be able to connect to targets instantly or be able to leap behind a pillar for safety. This gameplay dynamic allows us to save Blessing of Freedom for more meaningful moments.

In battlegrounds, Divine Steed is of no use when attempting to traverse water. Maps like Battle for Gilneas, Twin Peaks, Deepwind Gorge, Arathi Basin, Silvershard Mines and Seething Shore on occasion comes to mind for this example. Wings of Liberty helps eliminate this frustration.

Lastly of course, in all PvP content, uptime is key to generating Holy Power and Art of War procs. Lack of uptime greatly affects our performance.

Every single other melee specialization has access to a gap closer. Every single one.

I have heard the logic from Morgan Day in the recent interview with Towelliee and I understand the point. Having strengths/weaknesses built into classes is a core pillar for the game. However, this can no longer be the case for Paladins, especially for Retribution. Locking only one melee specialization out of gap closing is weaker game design. Alongside this, I would be very interested in hearing what the exact strengths are for Retribution that justifies this mobility weakness.

Perhaps the most frustrating for me, is Blizzard routinely showcases Paladins leaping in game or in cinematics. Turalyon, Liadrin, Yrel and Tirion have all been shown leaping.

I could not believe hearing Morgan Day say “basically giving them a warrior ability.”

A warrior ability?

If leaping is a warrior ability. Please stop showcasing Paladins leaping. It’s an absolute slap in the face.

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In game Tyrion, Turalyon, and now Liadrin have a leap after the last Hearthstone cinematic. Also captain Fareeya has a winged leap she used for her introduction. If you want to broaden to things like
valkyr they leap slam all the time.

If you expand out games such as HotS Yrel has a Leap jump as her main gap closer. If you expand to Diabo then you end up with falling sword, and all the things Tyrael and Imperius can do.

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This was an ability in legion which Turalyon and Arator used.

Tirion Fordring did something similar during the DK starting zone. When he jumped and attacked Arthas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcuy_X3nahw @5:05 you see him use it.

so this is actually very suprising, very disturbing that a dev would think that this is a “Warrior” only ability.

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Paladins in WoW have traditionally always had some range since the beginning of the game. Starting with the original Judgement Being 10 yards. Which I think is where it should be for spenders like Final Verdict and some other abilities. Not 20 yard. 10 still feels like melee, 20 is a ranged instant caster.

Turalyon uses it in an argus quest and liadrin uses in hearthstone.

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While true, but all of our melee baised attacks had been in melee. Only exo, judgement, and HoW was our ranged skills. (With seals only effecting auto attack.)

Crusader strike and our finishers should remain in melee. Full stop.

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As someone who hasnt played a lot of Ret Pally, has been smashed by them in PVP, subsequently learned how to kite them in PVP, however enjoys the fantasy and lore of them:

I believe Wings of Liberty should be introduced as a targeted gap closer.

From lore show offs, and being able to learn to counterplay and cc/kite a ret pally for an entire PVP match, they need help.

A ~1600-1800 mage shouldnt be allowed to EASILY kite a ret pally. It should require more skill and planning, akin to kiting a warrior or DH in PVP arena.

Also, the fact that for my preservation evoker, I have our Ret Pally in raid as my focus target for rescue… says something.

Perhaps even ground effect Wings of Liberty really would help…

Didnt ret pally not get brought to M Rasz due to movement issues???

BLIZZ GIVE RET MOVEMENT. I wish for a fair and balanced game for this spec :frowning:

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