Feral essay 2

Classes Druid
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TLDR; Feral is actually good, hopefully shadowlands utility changes will make it desirable, not crying about DH.
h ttps://www.wowmeta.com/bfa/dps-rankings

Feral and DH tied

Hi guys, if you are reading this you are probably just like me and are hoping for some good news regarding feral. Hopefully I can provide my view regarding our favorite hybrid feline.

Currently the community’s view of feral in BFA (let alone Shadowlands), is that of harsh criticism. It lacks the raw “degenerate (Ion Hazzikostas)” AoE potential of other specs like DH for example, that it isn’t durable and as useful as DH’s (looking at you Leech/Dodge/Darkness). The problem I find for feral is that it was and still is a hyper mobile sustained damage dealer, but very much a jack-of-all-trades but master of none utility/CD kit which was ok prior to DH and to some degree WW because the utility feral possessed was semi unique to them and made them attractive. But with the creation of monks and dh’s; other mobile leather melee classes that have superior utility kits than feral has resulted in ferals losing it’s niche and does not have the tools to compete with its biggest competition in its baseline utility kit yet… (shadowlands incoming)

I believe blizzard is attempting to address the power creep that has resulted in certain specs being extremely favorable in certain content. By all means classes should have niches that make them preferable and make the player feel special and needed, but players should not be rejected from certain content because they aren’t a certain class or spec. Mythic raiding and High Tier mythic plus will always have obvious superior classes that will probably have to be taken and that is ok, but that mentality shouldn’t creep warrantlessly into average to heroic content. (e.g not being able to get into -11 keys vs +16 keys)

My greatest fear regarding feral is that people misunderstand it. Look back to any expansion prior to the creation of DH’s (and to a lesser degree monks). Feral is/was an extremely niche spec, it was fast and extremely versatile. It could support any other raid/pvp role with buffs, healing, off tanking, or cc. And in the right hands can do viable to superb damage.

This brings me to my next point. Feral is very hard to play well.

AND THAT IS OK!

So many people in the WoW community look down on feral as a spec due to observing poor feral performance in the limited instances they group with a feral, or they are simply regurgitating previously regurgitated hate towards the spec to the point people will say they don’t like the spec simply because a lot of people have said it is bad.

So my questions for those people are,

Have you taken any time to understand feral?

Feral operates on a simple principle, buff your bleeds and bites as hard as you can on as many targets as you can.

There are a few things a feral player must do to ensure they are buffing their bleeds and bites as hard as they can.

In the current game Tiger’s Fury is a buff that grants 50 energy and a 15% damage boost for 12 seconds on a 30 second CD. (Don’t cast when low on combo points/high on energy, you also prefer for this to be pressed when you have bloodtalons up).

Bloodtalons is a buff granted by casting regrowth that gives your next 2 attacks a 25% damage boost over their duration, so bleeds receive this buff as well. (cast regrowth ONLY at 5 combo points, so in skilled hands, you can maintain extremely buffed Rips, Rakes, and Ferocious Bites over the course of a boss fight, which is required to match DH damage).

Instant cast regrowth is granted by using 5 combo point finishing moves. (So you probably won’t have Bloodtalons up for your first 5 combo point finisher of a fight which should be ferocious bite).

So now with those parts described, how is someone to put them together to assemble the wild animal that is a feral druid?

With lots of practice that’s how.

I am not going to go into detail about the feral rotation, but rather list off the complexity of the spec and the things a feral MUST do to compete with, by comparison, much simpler dps specs. I will do a direct comparison to DH as I feel it best fits the argument I am trying to make.

Total buttons in single target rotation –
DH = 4 buttons (eyebeams, chaos strike, demons bite, blade dance)
Feral = 8 buttons (rake, rip, thrash (w/ wild fleshrending (required azerite trait)), ferocious bite, shred, brutal slash, tiger’s fury, regrowth)

Dots to maintain –
DH = None
Feral = 3 (rake, rip, thrash (w/ wild fleshrending)

Procs/Buffs (That impact rotation) –
DH = None (Metamorphosis is not listed here as it is not a buff that changes what buttons you push to ensure optimal performance, whereas the feral buffs can change rotation and button/target priority on 2+ fights).
Feral = 3 - 4 (Tiger’s fury, Bloodtalons, Omen of Clarity, Predatory swiftness (could be bundled with Bloodtalons as this buff lets us activate Bloodtalons))

Something I wish to stress about WW and DH, feral’s main competition, regardless of the number of targets around them, their rotations remain the same (monk can crane kick as a spender perhaps). Whereas all the above mentioned dots, procs/buffs, and not mentioned rotation will all have their priorities change for feral, creating a multi-target rotation for feral. As well the feral has to figure out if a target will live long enough to merit using bleeds or if it is going to die quickly and that they must do immediate damage to preserve their meters (mythic+).

I am not saying you need to be a genius to play feral, nor am I saying anything bad about DH’s or easier specs

I am merely citing the stark differences between these two specs in hopes of showing why the feral population is so low, and why some of the people who choose to play feral do not perform well and give the spec a bad image. I would like the reader to think back to playing a racing game at a Chuck E Cheese’ or some other relatable arcade. The example I want to present to you will have to be Hydro Thunder, where you race super fast boats.

When you choose the boat you want to race with there is an indication as to how hard the boat is to use, with an easy medium or hard difficulty designation. I view WoW specs no differently than these boats, DH is easy mode and feral is hard mode.

AND THAT IS OK!

The different classes and specs in this game are supposed to appeal to different players, I find myself bored on DH, and find the buff and ability combos for feral to be highly satisfying especially when you see the big numbers they produce. I sincerely hope blizzard realizes that it is ok for specs to be harder than others and still elicit the same amount of dps/healing/mitigation etc as easier specs. I feel that players should not be rewarded for playing harder specs with more damage or healing because then certain players will feel forced into playing specs they don’t want to play. The player experience is what matters and if every class is easy and feels the same, a lot of players including myself are going to feel left out, as well as the other end of that spectrum if every class is made harder, some players are not going to be happy.

In conclusion, Feral is on the cusp of being in a great spot but blizzard cannot cave to inaccurate public sentiment about the spec, the Shadowlands alpha Bloodtalons changes are yet to be analysed, but specs changing over time has been going on since vanilla, the BFA iteration of bloodtalons just happens to be on the chopping block in this round of updates, I am looking forward to what Shadowlands holds in store for all specs.

I started playing druid/feral this expansion and have since put 830 hours into him, raiding mythic and competing in rated PvP above/around 2kcr and it is by far my favorite class to play since started playing this game as a child back in Wrath.

If you made it this far reader, I appreciate you taking the time to let me share my thoughts with you.

Kíñg of the Jungle

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Well…that “tied” dps happens around ilvl 475 or so…so it is not really available to most players ^^

It is first at that ilvl feral gets enoguh 2ndary stats. And also it is one of the raid bosses where aoe is needed and feral aoe has been decent for a while.

Also it was not before patch 8.3 the azerite traits for ferals was good enough.

The other leather wearing classes offer more utility and more on demand mobility.

Take away the azerite traits and essences (combined with the very low 2ndarys tats we will have at the start of Shadowlands) feral wil be a complete disaster…again.

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Quick heads up, in creating usable links without resorting to spaces, use the </> tool, or add ` to both the start and end of the link :+1:

https://www.wowmeta.com/bfa/dps-rankings

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Just from a pvp only perspective: If you put the same amount of effort into Feral that you do to ‘play well’ you’ll do much better on a DH, Rogue, Arms Warr, WW Monk, etc.

So there’s no real ‘reward’ for playing well. Ideally a higher skill cap class should be better than a lower skill cap class if playing at the highest level, but it’s obviously not the case with Feral.

Since there’s no reward for playing well as Feral people will either flock to the OP classes or sit and suffer on Feral. You may have the exceptional Feral players like Snupy and the guy that plays Jungle with Dillon, but balancing must keep in mind a larger number of players and not 1 out of 100.

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I seen a couple of youtube videos of good ferals…and they sure use the enviroment alot better than the others. They are kind of utilizing everything around them in addition to their class abilties. Wich most other classes dont really need to.

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Exactly…

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On further reading, I do see some bias and inconsistencies with your lists when considering the comparisons between Feral and DH. While you aren’t wrong in that Feral can be good (and I do appreciate that), and equal to a DH, there is no comparison where effort needed attributed in such results.

Hard, or complex is subjective.
While this may seem contradictory to the above paragraph, and certain concepts can evade new player, it isn’t exactly hard to play well, as the player just needs to be aware of what is going on with their kit (ty).

Saying this, Feral is more involved than most specs, but not at all difficult once the player knows the concepts.

Early BFA (before the talent changes), Feral blew. It was legitimately horrible, and worthy of the criticism during that time. Unfortunately, that stigma stuck for a lot of the expansion to the point where Feral is now performing well, largely due to scaling.

I do agree, and the Feral/Guardian kit (not just utility), feels outdated because of the lack of progress in the design for both specs. In SL, this is exacerbated even more with further unique utility taken from Feral/Guardian, without sharing options our casters have advantage of. All while limiting various abilities in form, such as Bres on Feral, the Alpha’s mess of casting a hot before Swiftmend, and further limitations of non-ferals to take advantage of Maim as utility (not an option for tanking).

With this, some of that criticism is absolutely justified, and urge further feedback in the effort to vocalise what is needed to improve on this spec.

The game has changed substantially over the years, and while most specs (not just DH/WW) have changed with it. With the introduction of M+, there is an entire ecosystem that has encouraged developers to cater for the content through output, utility, movement and options through talent design, where Feral has absolutely suffered over time.

Ignoring the fact that you’ve miscounted Feral’s buttons, for some reason added Rip twice, and while lunar inspiration is not in any way optimal, it’s not been considered, lets observe closer. You’ve included talents (and Azerite Traits) for your comparisons, and while Brutal Slash is absolutely used in the single target, you’ve simply forgotten immolation aura, and while not optimal, you’ve chosen to ignore DH talents such as Fel Blade, Dark Slash, Fel Barrage, Throw Glaive and Fel Rush (last two are for Demon Blades/Momentum build).

While Feral does have more buttons, you need to be accurate in your standard projections for each comparison.

Considering Feral is the dot spec (and you’re considering traits, while completely ignoring DH’s), I am wondering why this is even listed. With such, cooldown management for DH that overshadows Feral is part of it’s niche which will be explained in the next section.

Demonic requires the player to consider their timing of Blade Dance, and evem more so with the trait Chaotic Transformation into weaving your Eyebeam, Blade Dance, and Metamorphosis into an optimal rotation. Lets look at a non optimal builds where players can take advantage of the narrow Momentum windows, Nemesis where a player takes advantage of a dying mob, to spread the effect to all other mobs of that type. There is so much more to DH that you have simply ignored.

In defence of Feral, you’re also forgetting the initial snapshot of Rake coming out of stealth!

Except each spec is intended to be tuned around it’s maximum potential output, despite it’s complexity, in this case, the Chuck E Cheese’s arcade game, is not a good analogy as there is an intended pay off.

For Feral (or any spec), playing a complex playstyle can be it’s own reward, but output is going to decrease on error, or in choosing a non-optimal build. You are not going to overcome that maximum potential output which is dictated by the tuning at the time.

Nailed it!!!

I 100% agree, and on the very same token, I do not consider more complex talents, to further the gap between options because of the spec’s maximum potential output.

As we’ve known from the developers since Aug 2018, in the method of activating Bloodtalons, was not right for the spec long-term, where through macros, a player could mindlessly cast Regrowth (which isn’t great).

As they’ve recently expressed, casting a heal to activate a frequent maintenance buff felt weird, while the general consensus of the player base was/is deeply polarising. While I absolutely think the Alpha’s Bloodtalons, and the rest of it’s design for output and utility, could improve, it needs legitimate and critical feedback.

While it is heartening to see you’re finding the spec enjoyable, it still has a long way to go in design for baseline output, talent options and utility after it’s years of neglect.

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I counted the buttons correctly, the second rip is a typo. rake, rip, brutal slash, ferocious bite, shred, regrowth, thrash, tiger’s fury. Im sure upon inspection you will see the arithmetic is there.

I have not mentioned moonfire or lunar inspiration once, I dont know what you are trying to say.

I do agree that those were left out but they were not forgotten, I could just as easily cite iron jaws or incarn build and add a button or complexity to the feral rotation. This was a strict comparison of ferals optimal build to DH’s optimal build.

The above mentioned abilities carry 0 relevance for optimal DH damage, and using it as a gotcha in terms of missing out on DH abilities is silly, I could just as easily include moonfire and maim in feral by that standard, and again still vastly out numbers DH’s buttons.
I do admit I missed immolation aura, that fury generation cant be written off as a useless button.

Multiple classes in WoW have a passive DoT to maintain, adding an extra step of depth to the spec, ele, locks, dk, rogue etc. feral happens to have more whereas DH has zero its worth mentioning because it shows the rift between the two specs even more.

I do admit, I completely missed this and wish I had it in the original post.

Nemesis where a player takes advantage of a dying mob, to spread the effect to all other mobs of that type. There is so much more to DH that you have simply ignored.

Citing barely used niche abilities that belong to the weak DH build doesn’t strengthen your argument. Every class has weird builds they can do that can add some useless flair. Feral can run iron jaws or incarn build with MoC and VoP. We could go round and round about every conceivable build and use them as gotchas in an argument.

I could write another essay post about all the little things you have to remember as feral, I also stated I wasnt going to go into rotation. You also didn’t mention pre-regrowthing -> stealth -> berserk -> tiger’s fury to cap your energy the moment before you hit the super buffed rake. Its pointless to make remarks like that especially to someone who has mastered the spec.

Easy boat

Hard boat

You contradict yourself the very line after you say its not a good analogy. Perhaps I was not clear enough, The hard boat will yield a reward for playing it right and punish you for the mistake. If for some reason you miss your stealth rake off the bat or miss your first BT + TF rip, you will be punished for it severely

If you dont have blade dance on CD before popping chaotic transformation eyebeams, you are hardly missing out and will have multiple chances do the combo again to little detriment to your overall performance.

The only thing I agree with is that in the boat game the hard boats will yield better performance over all in the right hands, in WoW that performance I would argue is locked into niche utility/capabilities of the class as most classes are balanced within 15kish dps of eachother at endgame dps, I guess I agree and disagree.

This.

First of all, I dont know what developer thing you are referring to, and but in terms of the macro remark… how? PS regrowth are on the global, what ability can a feral bind regrowth to in order to mindlessly cast regrowth aside from tiger’s fury? Im genuinely curious. Id love to think there is more to learn from the spec I love, or if there is a way to make a macro that I can spam to do my rotation to some degree.

It is never hard casted in combat so either you or the devs you are citing have no idea what they are talking about. and unless im wrong and you are indeed remarking about instant casts, feral already has times in the rotation where you are sitting around and waiting for energy, in most cases the instant cast regrowth can fill that void while waiting for energy. If this reasoning came from the devs I am deeply disappointed in that.

Thank you for taking the time to read to post and remark upon it.

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In true comparison of options available, Moonfire should have been added for accuracy of your assessment.

Immolation Aura is a talent, and also optimal, which concludes your analysis in inaccurate.

Because DH is not a dot spec.

If you’re going to build an essay around complexity, you’d best not ignore options that offer such playstyles, despite tuning.

This is your essay. You should have included these details.

Of course you don’t know :roll_eyes:

Again, of course you don’t know. Not even keeping up to date with the changes and ignorantly thinking Ashmane’s Frenzy is returning at face value.

You’ve failed in an accurate comparison on both sides, like you’ve failed to understand the developers own words and intentions behind Bloodtalons.

I suggest you educate yourself further.

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That makes zero sense. My comparison does not need the F tier talents included in it to make it credible.

a single missed talent does not invalidate my analysis.

classes that have dots built into them arent dot specs. I can use dots as layer to a classes complexity.

The essay is built around mandatory complexity on ferals part not frivolous complexity like you are trying to base your counter argument off of. Because you can do doesnt mean you should do it, it is not my responsibility to try and imagine the non meta build and argue about them when they were never apart of the discussion to begin with.

Me not citing every facet of feral dps doesnt mean your argument gets stronger by pointing out things I didnt cite and act like i left it absent out of ignorance. At no point in the essay did remark about the actual ability combos and the step by step rotation facets. not sure why you think this is effective for your argument. Pointing out an absence of information does not even remotely equate to ignorance of information. The remark I made when I replied to you was to try and show you how silly the remark you made is.

There is very little I do not know about this spec. Read what you actually said and then compare it to how bloodtalons is used in practice, I will literally show you in game if im not getting the point across textually, but regrowth macros and hard casting regrowth mid combat is not a thing at all. I dont know what else to tell you man.

In my other post, I never said with certainty that Ashamans was coming back

Not sure why you are so condescending and being rude. you have 0 reason to be like that and I am respecting you despite your replies and suggesting I dont know how my own spec works.

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Yet you have no idea on the developers very public stance on Bloodtalons, both in August 2018, and recently in Alpha.

The simple fact you’ve celebrated the return of Ashmane’s Frenzy in the Alpha, is a clear indication that you have complete ignorance in what is actually happening with this spec.

Looks at the title: Ashmane’s Frenzy is back baby :roll_eyes:

Not to mention the fact that it hasn’t shown in any testing since it’s been datamined on August 9. But hey, you’ve kept up with the spec :thinking:

First, if you’re going to do an essay, be accurate on both viewpoints. You weren’t.

If you’re going to be knowledgeable in what is happening with the spec, in both abilities and talents, you’ll need to understand that developers have communicated their intentions. Not knowing these, and then claiming there’s little you don’t know, paints an image of compete ignorance of the spec, and one’s own intelligence.

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I believe Rockford is talking about a
/cast [@player] regrowth macro, and not a macro you can tie into your rotation. I haven’t played feral much in many years because of the poor reputation (most times well deserved), but from the outside I would be sad to see the passive survivability of constant regrowths go away. Ferals damage is obviously balanced around those regrowths, so cutting out the regrowth doesn’t magically increase dps, it just changes the theme while taking away survivability.

The only thing weird about current blood talons is the name to me. Fresh claws or something to reflect the healing portion would have made more sense.

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Weren’t kidding about this being an essay, ese.

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The problem with Feral we had for the past couple expansions will be gone in SL. We now have options to offer extreme raid and M+ utility. The simple fact that AoE is capped at 5, and DoTs are not, is enough to make Feral worth bringing to M+ again. Add to that HotW, allowing for clutch tank or healer replacement, and (hope it stays) Leader of the Pack being group wide again, we’re gonna be solid.

In PvP we’re losing some defensive options in exchange for more crowd control and better utility, which I’ll take all day long. I’m 100% fine with Feral being more of a glass canon outside of bear, and a target you either have to focus or watch them heal their ally back to full. Similar to how it was in TBC and WotLK.

TL:DR Feral doesn’t need to get 40 old abilities back, it got back 4 very strong ones, now it’s all down to numbers tuning and scaling. Please Blizzard, don’t bone us on the latter. I don’t want to be useless for 4 tiers only to be top tier on the last…again.

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whats that expression… Some mofos are always trying to ice skate uphill…

That’s feral defenders in a nutshell.

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Literally im about to graduate electrical engineering school lmao, ones own intelligence is not in question. And again, little i dont know about the spec, i didnt know aboutblizzards opinion about bloodtalons, but how does that tie into this? how does blizzard wanting to change it do anything for your argument, aside from showing a piece of information I didnt know that has 0 to do with the essay? I didnt come on begging for it to not be changed, nor did I write as if the current iteration was going to be in shadowlands. You are finding cracks (if they can even be called that) in my argument and then setting the bar for a proper argument just above them. It would appear you are just trying to get a rise out of me and trying to be disrespectful.

Claiming I wasnt accurate about feral because I didnt go into detail about rotation nuances which i will remind you again, I also admitted that I missed things about the DH especially with chaotic transformation as it is the stier build for DH, missing that one part of DH does not invalidate my arugment.

Most of your counter argument is being based off of responses I made to you off your first response to the essay and not upon the essay after I clarified the things you brought up in your remarks respectfully, You are trying to discredit me as the writer and I attacking the responses I make to you.

I knew there was a chance ashamanes wasnt coming back and put that line it. Why is that not acceptable to you?

The only reason I suspect you are conducting yourself like this is because you enjoy it. For some reason it gives you a sense of validation to attempt and tear someones work down and position yourself above them. You saw this essay as genuine analysis that was successful in most aspects and missed the mark on others (not discussing DH chaotic transformation build) and saw the opportunity to stamp yourself to it and try to bring attention to yourself. Your argument against me now is only possible because I was genuine/honest with you and tried to discuss with you and you are now using my responses, not the content of my essay to try and grandstand. You have

Even now Im not sinking down and insulting you back and questioning your intelligence, perhaps you are not used to genuine interaction on the internet and only interact with individuals as if they are a troll as that is how most people conduct themselves online and I don’t blame you for that. Don’t be jaded towards authentic discussion.

Your argument is loaded with logical fallacies
ad hominem - Attacking my intelligence
red herring - randomly citing rake opener and then upon my response saying im ignorant of feral gameplay because I didnt use the one specific response and including your original remark, and then carrying the discussion away from its actual content and onto me
hasty generalization -

cherry picking/sharpshooter - like I mentioned earlier you are finding minor cracks in the analysis and basing your argument around those cracks as well as your ad hominem remarks
Now fallacies dont mean you are automatically discredited, You did make a good point about me missing the few finer points to chaotic transformation build, and had you made the rest of your argument as concrete as that I would be hard pressed to discuss against what I straight up missed. but you didnt do that, you were able to rely on that nougat of knowledge and then left the discussion technique in the dust in favor of logical fallacy.

You also do not acknowledge if you are wrong about something for instance miscounting the feral buttons, they were not miscounted, without the second rip (typo) it still came out to 8, I knew how many buttons there were before typing out the list, a simple typo on my part to include the 2nd rip.

You have continuously popped offensive CD’s in the argument always moving to the next fallacy or critique but have yet to pop any defensives to my counter arguments.

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I’m happy for you, but that does not excuse you for ignorance in other areas.

While we also have the recent developer remarks on the intent behind Bloodtalons:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-druid-class-changes/490706/34?u=rockford-caelestrasz
As much as you favour Bloodtalons, it’s gone for good reason. Considering the fact you’re unaware of such a macro that’d “mindlessly cast Regrowth on yourself”, shows you’re not as well educated about the nuances of the spec as you suggest.

Furthermore, if you’re going to call something an essay, you’re best not to do it in half measures, in going into detail of set ups, and non-optimal builds that can become the dominant choice due to tuning.

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This is not a thing. You are appealing to a remark made by blizzard that is not realistic, you do not play feral, you are reading something stated by blizzard, and misinterpreting it. They are suggesting that you use regrowth on people who need it (extra work, which i agree with) or “cast it mindlessly on yourself”, there is no bloodtalons macro that ferals must or want to use to make it easier to cast regrowth on yourself, nor do you need a macro to make it function correctly. I will explain this, if im hitting a boss and i need to activate blood talons i just hit regrowth it AUTOMATICALLY puts it on me. What macro could I possibly use that could be better than this. The only macro you could use to max out your regrowth healing is to do a [targettarget] macro where it will automatically cast the heal on the target the boss is hitting making you an effective tank healer over the course of the fight, but this macro falls apart when things like range or los come into play and now the button is effectively broken and you have to press your standard regrowth. I will admit defeat and delete this post if you can show this magical macro that makes it easier to spam on myself than how the game already supports its use.

Whatever I want to talk about can be the essay, I dont have to remark on every concievable build because they could maybe be good if blizzard buffs them. That is a waste of time. Am i going to go into different stat builds as well? You are suggesting this is not an essay because I didnt dive down the rabbit hole of every single potential build. The essay is concise and focused your criticism is misguided on that front.

You also linked boomy information and I have no idea the point you are trying to make with it.

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Just because you are completely ignorant of a thing, doesn’t mean it does not exist…

You assume that a player is only active on the character they’re posting on :roll_eyes:

Again, ignorance :roll_eyes:

Then consider your information to be highly inaccurate…

You’ve simply ignored the information on Feral within the link…

One could say:
Because the highest competition Feral faces, is the need to re-roll to boomie, on consideration to public perception?

But again, you wouldn’t recognise that :thinking:

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just link the macro, you arent arguing anymore. Say something of substance.
So im supposed to take this

from this

So by this statement you do play feral. THEN SHOW THE MACRO OR ADMIT YOU CAN PLAY FERAL AND USE BLOOD TALONS JUST FINE W/O THE MACRO CONTRARY TO WHAT BLIZZARD SAYS, OR ADMIT YOU PLAY FERAL SUBOPTIMALLY W/O BLOOD TALONS AND HAVE NO BUSINESS ARGUING ABOUT IT WITH SOMEONE WHO HAS MASTERED IT OR ADMIT YOU DONT PLAY FERAL AND WERE JUST BEING A SHILL. edit caps