I still think Bloodthirst should be baseline and we should have raging blow into rampage at the start. IT SHOULD NOT take 27 levels before we get our first spender. Slam isn’t good enough and in tww it doesn’t even cost rage anymore also how did we manage to lose annihilator but keep onslaught these have to be the worst capstone talents of all time. I like the look of our hero talents, but our normal talents could not be in a worse place.
I sincerely don’t get the obsession with limiting warrior utility.
I wrote an entire post breaking down this exact issue. Warriors have the most amount of damage points (27 points, 56% of their total points) in there class tree while also having the least amount of utility points (9). As shown in the table below:
Class Talent Tree Comparison - TWW (Alpha)
| Classes | Damage Points | External Healing Points | Defensive Points | Utility Points | Mobility Points | Total Points (Excluding Starting Points) | % Damage Points of Total Points |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Warrior | 27 | 0 | 8 | 9 | 4 | 48 | 56.25% |
| Paladin | 22 | 7 | 6 | 10 | 3 | 48 | 45.83% |
| Rogue | 19 | 0 | 9 | 9 | 5 | 43 | 44.19% |
| Hunter | 22 | 0 | 11 | 12 | 6 | 53 | 41.51% |
| Druid | 20 | 4 | 13 | 13 | 2 | 52 | 38.46% |
| Demon Hunter | 16 | 0 | 11 | 15 | 3 | 46 | 34.78% |
| Evoker | 13 | 7 | 8 | 19 | 5 | 51 | 25.49% |
| Priest | 14 | 17 | 9 | 15 | 0 | 55 | 25.45% |
| Death Knight | 10 | 0 | 19 | 15 | 2 | 46 | 21.74% |
| Warlock | 11 | 0 | 23 | 13 | 3 | 51 | 21.57% |
| Monk | 10 | 6 | 9 | 17 | 8 | 50 | 20.00% |
| Shaman | 9 | 4 | 8 | 25 | 8 | 55 | 16.36% |
| Mage | 7 | 0 | 17 | 18 | 9 | 52 | 13.46% |
Even if they could grab all of their utility in the class tree, their utility kit is significantly weaker than every other class in the game when it comes to dungeons. I think if they removed some of the damage points or combined them somehow through creating choice nodes and then replaced them with utility talents, a lot of issues with the class tree would be solved. I made a bunch of suggestions in my post and I went into more detail, but it is long so I didn’t want to post it here.
I’m not sure if you are referring to the utility in the hero talent trees, but I think if the class tree had more utility, there would be less of a need for the hero trees to provide utility.
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Sadly with beta this week, it seems unlikely the talents will be changed much. One can hope though.
There is still plenty of time for changes. A ton of changes were made during the Dragonflight Beta. And several of the class and spec trees weren’t revealed yet when the beta launched if I remember correctly.
Been playing with Arms Colossus in PvP, You should either get Colossal Might out of combat and Demolish you should be able to move while using or Demolish first hit applies Colossus Smash. Arms over all just feels really messy with no real coherent plan for “Hero” paths or for the spec.
How’s slayer feel comparatively?
Its just a layer of added passives that dont really change gameplay meaningfully. Arms needs some love… and warriors just need more in general.
I strictly pvp, haven’t played terribly much of DF but think war/ arms is much better than BFA, slands war was good tho!
Going to just post a reply, which I feel sums up a decent bit of the base Arms side of things, that I realized only after typing that I can’t post on the beta forums despite playing the beta.
Continuing the discussion from Feedback: Warriors:
I don’t particularly find Arms button-bloated now (in DF) or in Beta. That said, I do find Rend dully redundant with Deep Wounds itself and would rather the latter’s uptime be made more sparse(ly available) and more impactful per second.
I would rather just see it baked into Deep Wounds.
Agreed. I actually like bouncing between Cleave and MS, and --especially in live-- the fact that I can reset either and have Cleave deal more damage than baseline ST fillers Slam, especially in Fatality builds, when no Overpower stacks are up.
Well… it’s a filler of last resort. If you want to opt out of hitting the key at all, I’d argue that the trick isn’t to reduce MS/OP resets but rather simply to lower Rage economy faintly and reduce Slam’s cost… which TWW has already done, to good effect.
Alternatively, we could, say, see Sudden Death’s proc rate increase significantly but not reduce its Rage cost, or split the difference and reduce its cost only by 20.
Or we could put soft overflow options on other talents, such as by having Whirlwind spend more Rage to deal additional damage when over X Rage (say, spend up to 60 Rage at 90+ Rage, always leaving just enough for MS), with Whirlwind dealing additional damage to its primary target / first enemy struck.
Etc., etc.
Why? Without that, you just have more filler spam at ALL times instead of merely when unlucky, which in turn means less rotational variance — fewer things to spruce up what could otherwise easily become doldrum.
Further than they already have?
Unless you are adding differing build choice to Slam, I don’t quite get the point of this. Its baseline state is, again, a filler of last resort. An overflow option for during bad luck. Any damage you increase it by you siphon from MS and the like, making Arms less bursty.
Agreed on toning down somewhat, in part to make the CD resets less wasteful and keep OP from so often being the highest priority skill for any given situation not near Rage-cap, but I don’t want to see Martial Prowess or the like removed outright. I’d rather just see it widened so that we aren’t dealing with separate tier, hero talents, Martial Prowess, and Executioner’s Precision all affecting the same skill but taking up 4 different (de)buffs’ space.
For both, you can sort of have the best of both worlds by just allowing it to increase in damage from time since last use and/or become cheaper with time since last use.
For instance, you could have Cleave and Mortal Strike each decrease each other’s cost, while Fervor of Battle causes Rage spent to increase the damage of your next double-Whirlwind (i.e., in using it twice in a row).
Just another hopefully constructive suggestions for the devs on what they could do to help the state of warrior beyond just a large % dmg buff.
Fury, Capstone talents and why they don’t feel very capstone… Odyns fury is fun to press but lacks impactful added capstones (10% flat dmg and whirlwind stacks and enraged element already going to be enraged when used) Needs something more interesting like your next rampage rampages All targets hit by odyns fury for full dmg. Or next 2. based off how little dmg basic melee’s do the other side of the capstone 30% increased melee dmg and attack speed should either be greater or have an added effect.
- Thunderous roar dmg feels semi lackluster. even compared to Odyns fury which is a so so talent as is.
Arms- Demolish feels like for its cd doesn’t do enough dmg to compete with the proc other functions of the mountain thane capstone that fury has.
Also Cleave is hitting for 1/5 the stated dmg of its tooltip, slow and chunky hits feel great for arms. But when they aren’t chunky enough its like ok why’s my Mortal strike hit the same as this dude using Bloodthirst amongst procs and dual wielded weapons. And thats only comparing the two, let alone other classes like ret getting their hero talent having huge contribution to dmg
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would like to add to this after doing a few more dungeons as arms- BIGGEST glaring issue is our aoe dmg filler. even when losing ST to talent into it. Cleave hits like a limp noodle and when its a replacement for WW, it needs to be more impactful. currently its barely a dmg gain if at all at 5 targets over even tunneling in mortal strike
Prior to the OF buffs the 10% increase was not worth a lot numerically, but since the OF buff the 10% is actually noticable and it’s nice.
As for the Enrage and Whirlwind stacks aspect, It starts off by being a fantastic QOL tool that also translates into higher immediate burst since we don’t have to spend an extra GCD on Whirlwind which mind you is a very weak button. The Enrage also means you get to press OF immediately instead of waiting for Enraged which is very handy in M+.
Your suggestion for Rampage to fully cleave to all target’s hit by OF comes with some issues.
Unlike the current talent which uses the pre-existing WW system this introduces a whole new cleave system. Why complicate things?
Since Rampage already gets cleaved via WW what happens if you have both WW stack’s and this new OF cleave buff? Do they both apply and Rampage hit’s the main target for 100% damage the 4 WW cleave target’s for 155% damage and the remaining adds that were hit by OF for 100%? It doesn’t make sense for the main target to take less damage than 4 other adds.
Introducing a whole new mechanic that ends up complicating the relatively straightforward and fun gameplay loop of WW cleaving is not the play IMO.
I do agree that Dancing Blades is behind Titanic Rage post OF buff, The concept is nice for the ST oriented capstone but to quote Archimtiros “without Annihilator, Dancing Blades is deader than dead” It certainly needs buffing or an added effect.
I can definitely get behind that, the downside with the 10% buff capstone to OF, it only buffs the upfront dmg and not the dot but in general there’s a few things that would be nice for fury playstyle to have some impactful capstons
It’s like a 0.5% increase vs a single target, which is very low. That’s ok, because it is predominantly an AoE talent anyway, but does make it dependent on how many targets you actually hit and causes it to underperform when you come to single target dungeon bosses. Personally, I think a moderate amount of damage should be moved out of Odyn’s Fury and into Titanic Rage instead.
The auto-Enrage and Whirlwind are very nice QoL, but as S3 showed us, not really enough to make it worthwhile for that alone. Combined with a healthy amount of increased damage would make it a much more satisfying talent though.
Dancing Blades is about on par with Odyn’s Fury in single target, which means it’s not worth spending a talent point there when you could put it into Hack & Slash, Wrath & Fury, or Bloodborne instead. Yes, it could be buffed in some way, though frankly I don’t want to emphasize it that much - in my mind, Onslaught should be the go-to single target talent and Odyn’s Fury should be the talent of choice for AoE.
I have a question regarding Mountain Thane
The tree capstone, Avatar of the Storm, makes Lightning Strikes have a 10% chance to grant Avatar for 4 secs while Avatar is not active. My question is: can this Avatar procs trigger the effects of Berserker’s Torment or Titan’s Torment?
No. Likewise, only natural casts trigger Storm’s two instant charges of Thunder Blast.
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Hey Everyone,
I’m not a warrior expert but I have noticed a few things with the Prot warrior tree compared to other tank trees and would love to have some other peoples thoughts or even a blizzard response would be helpful.
If you compare the prot warriors tree compared to other tanks you will see a few things:
don’t get me wrong, I love the gameplay of warrior tanks but I feel like other tanks have an advantage in talent selection over warriors. If we compare their talent tree to other tanks there’s a few things we can observe.
Prot Warrior: Has 8 choice nodes
Prot Pally: Has 6 choice nodes
Brew Master: Has 7 choice nodes
Guardian Druid: Has 5 choice nodes
VDH: Has 4 choice nodes
BDK: Has 2 choice nodes
This is a fairly large spread. I know choice nodes don’t make or break a spec but it restricts choices and different builds.
The second thing I want to mention is the structure of the warrior tree compared to the other tank classes.
If you take a look at each you will see the Prot Warrior tree is much more restricted compared to their counterparts. This restriction is created by two things. First being three segregated “mini trees”. The second restriction is how many chances you can cross over to the opposing mini tree to the left or right. Compared to other tank specs there is very clear comparison.
I’m NOT making this post to hope for a buff to prot warriors but rather the same flexibility to the tree just like the other specs!
Cheers
Ev
PS: having intervene reflect a spell would be such a clutch move.
5 Likes
it’s not jarring in the slightest. you just replace WW on your bars with TC and it’s functionally the same