Feedback: Warlocks

This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Warlocks in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

1 Like

Affliction

Unstable Affliction and Seed of Corruption are returning as Affliction’s main Soul Shard spenders. Malefic Rapture solved a lot of issues that plagued Affliction towards the end of Battle for Azeroth, however, placed a lot of emphasis on rotational setup and increased its overall complexity. Malefic Rapture constantly poses the question “when should I spend my Soul Shards?” and it’s difficult to answer given how many factors impacted its throughput. Additionally, each new damage-over-time (DoT) effect added to Affliction’s arsenal subsequently diluted the throughput of Malefic Rapture which makes it feel less impactful in settings with multiple targets. While we could have easily reduced the number of effects impacting Malefic Rapture, we wanted the answer to the question of Soul Shard spending to be “now” most of the time, outside of pooling for Darkglare.

Overall, we want less conditionals to affect Affliction’s throughput to reduce setup time, increase consistency, and add clarity to when a spell should be cast. For example, Shadow Embrace has been removed, and the damage increase Unstable Affliction provided prior to Shadowlands via its Contagion talent has been omitted. Both effects further dilute the throughput of Affliction and intrude on the identity of Haunt which is to signify a priority target.

Now, to address the elephant in the room: Vile Taint. While many specializations have tools to solve DoT application, DoTs do not define their moment-to-moment gameplay and shouldn’t as that is the realm of Affliction. Agony would lose a lot of texture, and throughput, if its application played out in a similar way to Corruption. In addition, there is less emphasis on having every target afflicted with Agony with the removal of Malefic Rapture as your spender’s throughput is no longer dependent on having Agony active. Since Vile Taint cannot maintain Agony on its own, we’ve removed it and replaced it with Shared Agony – an effect similar to Balance Druid’s Twin Moons. This gives us a controlled, tunable method of scaling Agony application in multi-target situations that maintains the core, DoT-centric gameplay of Affliction.

Lastly, we are introducing a new 1 minute cooldown: Dark Harvest. This is an experimental channeled spell that mirrors Malefic Rapture in some ways but instead of scaling per DoT it only needs a single DoT to maximize its throughput. Let us know what you think about this new cooldown and the other changes to Afflictions as we’re excited to hear your thoughts!


Demonology

Our first goal for Demonology as we move into Midnight is to address Demonology’s reliance on addons to monitor Wild Imp energy to make decisions on when to cast spells like Implosion, Power Siphon, and Summon Demonic Tyrant. To accomplish this, we are removing the energy component from Wild Imps which means that Wild Imps will be around much longer (40 seconds) before disappearing. In efforts to prevent many Wild Imps from running around, we are adding a limit to how many Wild Imps you can have summoned at once that can be increased via multiple talents.

Secondly, we want to take a hard look at Demonology’s ramp time and make adjustments to the number of casts or cooldowns needed to execute high throughput. It’s also important that each spell can stand on its own and doesn’t feel like it exists purely for Demonic Tyrant. Some examples of changes made in service of this goal are: Vilefiend has been folded into Summon Dreadstalkers in the form of a high-level talent and Grimoire: Felguard has been removed.

Lastly, we want to provide better onboarding for new or returning players wanting to play Demonology. Upon reaching level 10, a slew of new spells would fly to your action bar without much explanation and the spells you had used prior were either changed or are now sub-optimal (looking at you, Corruption). Additionally, it’s never communicated to the player of how powerful Summon Felguard is compared to your other demons. To address these problems, we have moved several baseline abilities to the talent tree to reduce confusion and smooth out early leveling.

These changes make up a huge shift in Demonology’s gameplay, so please let us know your thoughts! We’ll continue to iterate based on our own playtesting and your feedback.


Destruction

Overall, we’re fairly happy with the current state of Destruction. That said, we did want to make some changes going into Midnight to streamline its gameplay and reduce the amount of conditional power Destruction relies on, such as temporary damage windows or maintenance buffs.

As a Destruction Warlock, we want your Chaos Bolt and Rain of Fire spells to feel impactful and to accomplish that we need to cut a lot of the temporary increases so we can move that power into those spells baseline. Now that a lot of those effects have been trimmed, we can make tuning adjustments based on data provided through testing and feedback.

15 Likes

Hello! I wanted to provide some feedback after playing Warlock for a bit on alpha. Up front I would like to say I’m very happy with a number of the changes and am excited for the new warlock playstyle in Midnight. But at the same time, in my mind Warlock is one of the classes that I feel needs a robust UI to play effectively and I don’t think the current alpha build is hitting that mark.

Really quick background about myself: I am mainly a raider with a goal of AOTC every patch. I have gotten AOTC every patch since the start of shadowlands across a number of different classes (warlock, evoker and dk mainly, but also hunter and mage). I also usually hit 2500 on my alts and 3k+ on my main every season.

For warlock, I mainly play Destruction and Affliction so I’m going to give feedback for them here. Like I said above there is a lot to like, but I’m actually going to start with the things that are show-stoppers in my eyes; things that I feel like if they go unaddressed I would not consider maining warlock in Midnight.

SHOWSTOPPERS
Affliction

  • Without tracked debuffs in the cooldown manager, the class is unplayable to me full stop. This was outlined in an article so I hope it’s coming soon. There are simply too many different debuffs to juggle in order to play this class effectively without having a UI element that shows which debuffs the target doesn’t have, which debuffs it does have, and a pandemic indicator to show when you can refresh them
  • Similar to the above there are some nameplate issues that I’d like to mention. There needs to be an option to highlight your debuffs when they are in pandemic range on enemy nameplates. This is needed for reapplying debuffs like wither, agony etc. Without this, it is frustrating and clunky to maintain multiple debuffs across a group of targets.

Destruction

  • There are a couple weakauras that I use that I would consider mandatory for playing destruction effectively. The first is a simple one that is grey when no target has mayhem, and highlights and shows a timer when ANY target has mayhem. My worry is that even when debuff tracking is added to the CD manager, there will be no way to mimic this functionality. This is very important, because there are some cases where you would decide to cast Chaos Bolt instead of RoF if mayhem is up, and it can be very hard to spot that in a sea of nameplates.
  • The second I would consider mandatory is tracking the Diabolist ritual. Right now, you can track the buffs for diabolist, but only the countdown buffs. You need to also be able to track the “Demon is ready to be summoned” buff. It is frustrating that this means you need to track 6 total different buffs in order to maintain this functionality, but using your spenders at the right time according to your point in the ritual is very important to playing the class effectively

OTHER FEEDBACK

Affliction

  • I am a big fan of the removal of Malefic Rapture. Without it, it frees up a lot of room for error by taking away the need for cultivating a perfect cooldown window
  • Casting a bunch of seeds in AOE feels fun and satisfying
  • The two above changes to me sound super promising for Aff in m+, as before you were reliant on Vile Taint, Rapture, and your burst windows to do good AOE damage. But now you should be able to do more consistent aoe by spamming seed
  • I am slightly worried about the talent tree being split between AOE and ST nodes. In the past when trees were set up like this, classes that could take AOE and ST at the same time bubbled to the top of the meta and classes that had to choose one or the other were more fringe. Hopefully that isn’t a problem with Aff in midnight, but my guess is that it may be.
  • The targeting for the Shared Agony talent seems inconsistent. There were times where it would pick a mob with a low remaining time as the secondary target instead of a mob without the debuff at all. I would expect it to target mobs with no debuff, and then target in range mobs sorted by those with the shortest remaining time
  • Nightfall giving a free seed of corruption feels a bit clunky. Because both buttons light up at the same time, my gut reaction makes me think I can cast both in succession but casting either consumes the buff entirely. I think I would prefer if it functioned similar to Shard Instability, the free UA talent, where the free seed and the nightfall were separated instead of consumed the same way. I think there is also a bug where if nightfall procs while you are casting seed, it can be consumed by seed at the end of the cast.

Destruction

  • Currently Conflagrate both applies immolation and spreads it to nearby targets. This feels great and an amazing addition to the class. However, for some reason it does not refresh the duration of immolation on your main target. That feels like a bug to me, but if it isn’t, it’s definitely frustrating and a bit confusing
  • In TWWW, you could cast channel demonfire to extend immolate in AOE so that the duration matched the cooldown of Cataclysm. I definitely miss this right now, but maybe if what I mentioned above is fixed I wouldn’t.

Thank you if you read all the way through! Looking forward to where the class goes in development.

14 Likes

Affliction
With the removal of combat addons it’s extremely hard to track more than 1 debuff on a target. Affliction will be the hardest spec to play unless you have super powers. You have to track way too many debuffs, in fact even stacks of debuffs to a certain degree. Currently destruction has better QoL for dots than affliction and that feels wrong. I don’t know what the solution is, but with the dumbing down and restrictions of addons this isn’t it.

Destruction
The updated duration on Havoc feels weird. I don’t know how uptime vs mayhem will work out, but the biggest issue with Mayhem is that you waste a lot of time at the start/end of the mayhem proc as you can often not get a cast in. With the long duration of havoc this doesn’t happen, so you fit more casts in the same amount of time. While some may consider this a form of skill expression, I find it mostly a maintenance debuff at this point. Mayhem also has the tendency to proc on my target for some reason, which is even more annoying.

General
While at the rework, make soulburn cost no soul shard and make it passively apply its buffs. The rework is to make things simpler, but effectively this is still forcing people into a clunky macro that doesn’t always work, or wastes a shard because it was still on CD. To use it properly for demonic circle you practically need a macro or a total of 3 keybinds.

8 Likes

I haven’t been able to test this yet because the quest chain is long, but please please turn the destruction apex talents green when I have all my spell made green.

9 Likes

Kalamazi Midnight Alpha Feedback

Now that we are in the later stages of Alpha testing, I wanted to make a post on the state of Warlock. Will likely follow up on it once Beta begins or with more Warlock changes. I want to touch mainly on general gameplay and talent choices/pathing today. Will likely elaborate more on niche topics/addons and nameplates when beta begins and we can test in competitive settings.

  • Affliction

The return of UA spender affliction is something that I am quite excited about. In its current alpha form, it is a bit difficult to test with certain things being a bit buggy such as Darkglare not extending UA, certain Hero Talent changes not yet implemented, but I am sure that will come in a future build. The affliction spec tree does feel like it could potentially use a few changes that I want to highlight here.

Affliction Talent Tree Pathing

Gate 1 of the spec tree requires us to essentially spend 9 talent points to gain access to Drain Soul/SB, Summoner’s Embrace and SL/AC. While there IS the option to skip one of these talent nodes, they are all essentially required talents. Finding a way to reduce the “required” talent points in the first gate to 8 would go a long way in helping afflictions pathing in gate 2 and 3 of the spec tree. Potentially moving the Summoner’s Embrace talent node to gate 2/somewhere else of relevance.

Gate two feels a tad bloated, but also restrictive. In its current form, the aff spec tree requires you to invest what feels like an excessive amount of talent points into AOE/M+ builds that use Seed of Corruption and Sow the Seeds. Talents such as Xavius’s Gambit and Seeds of Corruption could potentially be made 1 point talents (down from 2), which would free up additional points being spent in the middle section of the spec tree. Potentially something along the lines of combining Haunt/Improved Haunt and Dark Harvest/Cull the Weak into one talent would also give a bit of flexibility when it comes to acquiring additional talent points in this section. In its current form, it feels like we are unable to select talents that we want access to in a variety of settings due to talent point availability or talents that seem a bit “bloated”, like the Haunt talents, Dark Harvest/cull and Gambit/Seeds of Corruption being 2 point investments.

Gate three also feels a bit limited when it comes to building AOE/M+ builds, due to the fact that you are essentially required to spend 7-8 points in required abilities, being Relinquished, Patient Zero, Sow the Seeds, Nocturnal Yield, Shared Instability and Creeping Death. This leaves very little room for points being spent in more single target/prio damage based abilities such as Fatal Echoes, Cloying Power, Ravenous Afflictions and Cascading Calamity/Soul Miser. It’s understandable that we should not be able to acquire all of our capstone talents, but it feels quite limited at the moment once we select the "required M+/Seed” talents. Potentially condensing/combining talent points into one another, such as Malevolent Visionary and Darkglare or Sow the Seeds and Patient Zero, could go a long way in offering a bit of freedom to Affliction when choosing capstone talent in varying settings. There is also a world where Relinquished and Fatal Echoes could become 1 point talent nodes, which also frees up points to be spent in other areas.

Cloying Power is also an interesting talent that has relevance in APE based settings, but is nearly unreachable in builds that are made for AOE, due to it being gated behind spending 2 talent points in Fatal Echoes to reach Cloying Power. Cloying does universal relevancy, so shifting it to a more central location could be an option.

I am a bit worried in its current form that Affliction will suffer in single target/prio damage when it comes to M+ or AOE scenarios due to how few points are remaining after our mandatory talents are chosen.

Shared Agony and Agony Refreshes

As our new way of spreading and maintaining Agony, this ability needs to be “smart”, prioritizing refreshes on mobs with a lower remaining duration in Agony. Currently, it refreshes randomly, often on the same mobs over and over. It would also be nice if there was some kind of functionality baked into potentially seed of corruption OR whenever we spend a soul shard, that our active Agony’s have their duration increased by potentially 1-1.5 seconds or so. The new functionality of Shared Agony is nice in many ways, but will also result in us applying/reapplying agony more than we did with Vile Taint existing.

  • Demonology

The implementation of the 9 imp “cap” to Demonology in Midnight has brought with it many changes to the spec, but at the same time, its core gameplay still remains similar to where it was in TWW. We still have Vilefiend, Dreadstalkers, Imps, Tyrand and a few new demons thanks to our Apex talents. I do like the changes made to Vilefiend, where it is not summoned by casting Call Dreadstalkers, and it’s also nice to see Doomguard back with his Shadowbolt Volleys. Thematically, having armor plated Tyrants and other new demon effects is exciting, but it feels like something is missing.

It feels that when playing Demo in Midnight, that I am just a bystander in a sense. I am no longer able to continuously summon an army of imps with every Hand of Guldan cast and then build that army of imps to 20+ active units with my Demonic Tyrant, I am limited to 9.

That plus the removal of Grimoire: Felguard and Demonic Strength/Bilescourge Bombers has left Demo feeling a tad bit empty. I feel as if I am simply casting Shadowbolt/Demonbolt and then Eye of Gul’dan for 50 seconds out of every 1-minute CD window and the demons that are being summoned aren’t being summoned by me, their essentially just passively spawning in while I cast Shadowbolt, the bystander effect. You do cast Dreadstalkers every 20 seconds, but this leaves Demo’s rotation feeling quite empty, to the point of it feeling nearly too simplified.

I understand the reasoning behind the 9 imp “cap”, but do feel that we could elaborate upon other Demo abilities to make the spec a bit more exciting to play, while also breaking up the simple builder/spender rotation that currently exists in Midnight.

Axe Toss and Doomguard Bracers

Finding a way to separate the stun aspect of Axe Toss from the interrupt would go a long way for Demo’s functionality in M+. Having this ability be both is quite limiting in scenarios where you want to kick a spell, but not stun the mob. Demo locks cannot kick mobs in from range with it in its current form either, further limiting the toolkit. At this point, having the option to summon a Felhunter to kick once every 30 seconds (via a new spell) would be welcome. Axe toss could then return to being just a stun, while also giving Demonology the ability to kick.

Antoran Armaments certainly is thematic, but sadly will rarely (if ever) be used in PVE. If we want to retain the 5% damage amp portion of the talent, reintroducing some kind of ability that causes your Felguard to do additional damage (Demonic Strength or something of the sort) could be swapped into that talent position. This would also help further drive home the issue of wanting to make it clear that your Felguard is Demo’s main pet, which is something that was mentioned in an earlier alpha build.

Antoran Armaments

An armor plated, cleaving Demonic Tyrant is VERY cool, but sadly does very little damage. The ability likely needs significant buffs for it to be chosen in relevant settings. With the imp cap also being introduced, I think there is a case that can be made for a Demonic Consumption/Reign of Tyranny level damage increase to be baked into Antoran. Tyrant setup now is excessively simple, getting max value out of your Tyrant is no longer much of a concern with pet min-maxxing. Bringing back that 1-minute “burst” damage profile that Demonology was known for would be quite exciting and make it feel like your cooldowns matter once again.

Eye of Gul’dan

Thematically, Eye of Guldan is an exciting ability. Sadly when it comes to actual gameplay, it feels a bit lacking. Shifting from having no limit on the number of imps you can control in TWW, to a max of 9 in Midnight is quite jarring initially. It feels as if Eye of Guldan should honestly “feel” more rewarding than it does. Visually, it’s a simple, green laser that shoots quickly and then disappears, and this is our main filler spell that we cast for essentially 50 seconds out of every minute. Having Eye of Guldan potentially summon literal Eyes of Guldan (like we used to have with Nether Portal) that shoot red death beams every Eye cast would honestly make the ability feel much more exciting, even if it’s just a visual effect. It would in a sense fill a similar role to what old, uncapped Hand of Guldan did, but instead Eye of Guldan would summon 3 Eyeballs that have no interactions with Implosion or other abilities. There would also not need to be a cap on said effect like there are imps, so you could essentially have 6-9 (or even more) Eyes of Guldan active at once. You could even change the “Evil Eye” capstone talent into one that has a chance of summoning twice the amount of eyes of guldan possibly, which makes things even more visually rewarding.

There is also the issue of Eye of Guldan not cleaving in cleave based settings like Hand of Guldan does. While this CAN be fixed with tuning of other abilities in our cleave toolkit, having Eye of Guldan (or Eyes of Guldan, if the above suggestion is taken into account) hit multiple targets would help with our damage profile and be visually quite appealing.

I really do feel this would go a long way in adding some “summoner identity” back to Demonology in Midnight, while not fighting against the imp cap or any other changes made to the spec. Being able to still “summon” an army of demons (or in this case, eyeballs) would feel quite rewarding IMO and would not require massive changes to what has already been built in Midnight.

Ancient Imps

Ancient Imps currently have an internal timer which is checked every 15 seconds, which causes them to spawn or respawn if they have died by any means. This means that it is quite beneficial to have a way to track the internal cycling of the, but we simply don’t have a way to do so. The ability itself might need some kind of changes or overhaul to simplify this issue, but I am not sure what it looks like exactly.

Sac Souls

Just a quick mention but in its current form will likely not ever be played with a cap of 9 imps max. Needs significant buffs or hopefully, it changed to a different ability.

  • Destruction

Destruction I feel has received a good bit of quality changes. Havoc extension and some QOL via Roaring Blaze and Improved Conflagrate feel good to play with. I feel that most of Destructions issues lie within Gate 3 aka, its capstones. Destruction also has a total of 44 spec tree talent point options (not including Apex talents), which is actually two more than it has on retail (42). This leads to the spec feeling a bit limited on overall talent point options, but makes it a candidate for talent point reduction of some abilities such as Conflagration of Chaos, Ruin, Destructive Rapidity, Backlash and Ashen Remains.

Improved Havoc and Mayhem

Having Havoc last 20 total seconds via Improved Havoc feels amazing! With IH being a node that’s directly connected to Mayhem as well, it does feel like Mayhem should benefit in some additional form when it comes to duration extension. I believe in its current form, Mayhem is only benefitting from the damage increase that IH brings. Adding a 1-2 second Mayhem duration extension feels like it’s possible, but may depend on the proc chance of Mayhem itself.

Mayhem also can proc on your main target, which is quite annoying and should likely be changed. Having to change targets before casting/mid cast feels awkward when you don’t notice it instantly and leads to clunky gameplay at times.

Roaring Blaze

As our new way of spreading and maintaining Immolate/Wither outside of Cata, this ability needs to be “smart”, prioritizing refreshes on mobs with a lower remaining duration in Immo/Wither. Currently, it refreshes randomly, often on the same mobs over and over.

Lake of Fire

I quite enjoy Lake of Fire, but also know that mobs will often be pulled out of the effect in M+, an issue that plagues every ground-placed effect in WoW. I do think that making the visual for Lake of Fire more defined would help tanks/other players a good but when it comes to keeping mobs in the effect. I have been visualizing something along the lines of a Death Knights Defile effect, but a red color, essentially a true Lake of Fire.

Emberstorm and Fire and Brimstone

These talents should likely swap places, as Emberstorm is universally relevant, but F&B is not. Having to path through either Flashpoint or F&B to get Emberstorm feels a bit odd, especially in single target settings.

Avatar of Destruction

The changes to Avatar (gating it behind Soul Fire and D Rift) make the ability feel less exciting to me in Midnight. Having it remain in its current TWW form is a more exciting effect, knowing that he will spawn in every so often and provide a bit of extra damage/throughput.

Soul Fire

The new version of Soul Fire sadly, feels like a step backwards from where it is in TWW. Soul Fire is in a state in TWW where it finally feels rewarding and exciting to hit, when you receive Decimation procs. The removal of Decimation has made the spell feel worse to press as a whole, even with the recent cast time reduction change. Soul Fire and Decimation is a combo that I feel should stay in Midnight. It is always exciting seeing a random proc come in, a button glow and pressing it, knowing that you are doing something impactful. Soul Fire in its new form does not feel that way, even if it summons an Overfiend.

Dimensional Rift

D Rift feels like it has so much potential. Older abilities like Flame Rift, Lessons of Space Time, Immolate Charge resets and other effects have made it a very exciting button to press in the past, but sadly they don’t exist in Midnight. Having Overfiend as a “reward” for hitting a Chaos Rift feels a bit lackluster, as if Overfiend can stand on his own, like in TWW. Having a capstone section of the spec tree that builds upon D Rift however, would give the opportunity to bring back/tweak other Rift based effects (mentioned above) that made Rift feel exciting and rewarding to play with.

The cleaving aspect of Dimensional Embers being baked passively into D Rift would be cool as well. It would add a bit of stacked cleave/M+ relevance to the ability, which it’s currently lacking.

Mark of Ruvaraad

Feels a bit like a placeholder talent. Could be removed to offer additional capstone talent flexibility if changes are made to other talents.

DFI/CDF and DFM

The removal of Immolate/Wither extensions from the CDF talent row is unfortunate and the ability itself does not really feel capstone worthy. In its TWW form, its mainly played in M+ due to the Immolate extension effect. While Roaring Blaze does help fill this gap in Midnight, it has left CDF and its counterparts quite lacking in both damage and honestly, excitement. Potentially making this a spell that we can cast/channel on the move, while also buffing the damage considerably, would make the effect feel much more worthy of being a capstone. In its current form however, I struggle to see a world where it will be selected over other capstone options or in general.

Conflagration of Chaos, Ruin, Destructive Rapidity, Backlash and Ashen Remains

It feels as if a handful of these spells could be made into (or back into) 1-point talents. Destruction’s talent tree has actually gained a raw number of potential talent points (44 in Midnight, up from 43 in TWW) which has made some talent feel hard to take/access and pathing a bit odd overall.

  • Class Tree

I don’t want to spend too much time on the class tree at the moment. While some abilities do feel a tad bit awkward place pathing wise, you can essentially acquire whatever talent you want to the points we have available. I do want to touch on a few talents though specifically.

Fiendish Stride

The movement speed increase is nice, but Burning Rush simply hurts too much in TWW. Dragonflight saw a different version of Fiendish Stride that reduced our damage taken from Burning Rush by a much larger amount. Increasing Fiendish Strides damage reduction to maybe 30% or 40% would go a long way in helping Warlock mobility. The damage we take from BR simply feels a bit too high, especially if we are talented into fiendish, which is supposed to make it a bit more bearable.

Horrify and Howl of Terror

Making it that Horrify causes mobs feared by Howl of Terror to tremble in place would be a MASSIVE QoL increase for Warlock in PVE scenarios. Howl of Terror is rarely ever chosen in PVE due to the fact that fearing 5 mobs pretty much always means they are going to pull some surrounding pack, based on the way they flee. Having the ability to fear mobs in place as a form of AOE CC would go a very long way in helping improve Warlocks PVE M+ utility and honestly, feels like it should work that way in general based on how the ability tooltips read.

Fortified Soul

This talent was nerfed from granting 15% to 8% Soul Leech in a recent Alpha build. Soul Leech grants 10% as a baseline ability, so this talent essentially grants us nothing. If it were to grant an additional 8% Soul Leech, that would work, but in its current form, does not grant any effect.

Teachings of the Black Harvest

Black Harvest has so much potential to be a really cool ability. Potentially allowing us to summon greater versions of our current demons, or reskinning them. Granting additional damage abilities or even just a second pet once every couple of minutes would be really cool. Sadly, the effects that it grants are quite lacking. An overhaul that adds some Warlock-esque flavor to the ability would be really cool!

Frequent Traveler

There have been times where I am spamming Gateway and I am essentially “double debuffed” from taking the gate once. I assume tis is from spamming the Gateway, but makes me sorry this may end up being the case with Gateway control shards. It also feels like there should be two different colored debuffs you get when talented into Frequent Traveler, to quickly recognize if I can gate a second time, without having to hover over the debuff itself. Maybe a Yellow debuff for 1 charge remaining and a Red debuff for 0 charges.

Blight of X and Pacts

Exciting ability, but feels a bit overcomplicated with the recent changes to curses and “pacts”. To simplify the ability (while also having some nostalgia), Impending Catastrophe “smart” cursing could be added to the effect, where it casts either Weakness or Tongues on the mob, based on what kind of mob it is, caster vs melee.

There is also a world where hitting the effect simply empowers curses that you already have active on mobs, sort of like a mass Amplify Curse for active effects. This would retain Weakness and Tongues effects, but also let you mass Amplify Exhaustion, which can be quite strong.

Pacts themselves feel a bit overcomplicated versus just having 3 buttons for Curses. I would assume the pact change was made partially to condense Curse keybinds as well as for Blight of X applications, but it feels a bit much. I think there is a world where we can have curses back, while also maintaining curse choice with Blight.

Thanks for reading my novel!

Kalamazi

30 Likes

Since I can post here now, please refer to this thread:

For some feedback that was given during the closed alpha cycle. The OP has links to changes week to week (but was not dynamically updated to keep feedback relevant from week to week).


Feedback for the start of beta (things to look at)


Destruction

  1. Capstone talents still need to be looked at, particularly Mark of Ruvaraad, the tuning of soul fire vs dimensional rift (rifts are woefully uncompetitive for the 3rd expansion in a row for pve), Destructive rapidity is massively bugged, and lastly, channel demonfire (CDF) just sucks as an “exciting” capstone.
  2. Hellcaller Tuning still continues to be a sticking point with no deviation between affliction and destruction. Right now there will still be the issue where destruction will compete with affliction if blackened soul continues to massively prop up spread cleave (especially with passive mayhem cleave). It is both easier, to do spread cleave (less cognitive load) and more efficient, as destruction (see manaforge omega demonhunter fight). Not sure how you fix this without shifting a lot of damage nodes for destruction so that their niches don’t overlap as much? Too much of the damage profile is shifted on to wither (blackened soul) and destruction just has more options to keep blackened soul high with a significantly increased soul shard spend and build rate.
  3. The loss of decimation just doesn’t feel good, and our alternative options now feel worse than what we had. It doesn’t feel great to go from something that was really awesome, had low barrier to entry, and didn’t add complexity to the rotation, to an objective downgrade of having no variance in our rotation anymore. If you are worried about “complexity” you can an add a visual element to decimation like the old molten core proc looked like back in mists of pandaria: https://imgur.com/a/VukvKLx

Affliction

  1. There is a new term being thrown around for affliction now (thanks Motoko) called “Haunt Bombing”. Haunt seems incredibly overloaded, and it’s going to be precarious to tune our apex talent around a single ability having so many different damage modifiers associated with it in both aoe and single target. Curious to see where this leads, considering how fun it is.
  2. Extending dots hasn’t really been touched upon by dev notes up to this point; is this something that is expected to stay? And if so, how does that factor in to trying to push affliction in a direction that was outlined in the first development notes?
  1. At the moment, extending dots, as well as the gameplay from both of our hero talents pushing a 1m cycle of pooling has diminished this goal significantly since we can’t really get around both 1m pooling and 2m pooling. Since we’re expected to have roughly 7 shards per minute (+/- 1) in single target, this seems to counteract the intended gameplay specificed in the development notes since we will be pooling close to 80% of our total shards at any given time for an optimal rotation (especially now that we get free UA casts through shard instability). Dark harvest and malevolence are the biggest offenders here, and I’m not sure how to make this “feel” better, and to mesh with the design goals, unless the goals themselves are restated.
  2. Affliction plays nearly identitical on beta as it does on live (with an added emphasis on haunt bombing now), but the playstyle doesn’t change, nor does it reduce complexity. Arguably, affliction is harder to play in the beta than on live because of the ambiguous nature of when to use Unstable Affliction versus Seed of Corruption.
  3. Seed goes to 3 targets with sow, but is it really the best damage global at 3+ targets when using other damage-increasing effects? This also doesn’t include Soul Harvester having no mention of seed, and Hellcaller prioritizing damage over time increases rather than direct damage sources like seed. It’s very confusing for newer players now with dual spenders and an uneven amount of talent “weight” put on either ability.

Demonology

Class design is usually very subjective, but I think demonology design coming from last week’s rework has been objectively, a big success in refocusing the summoning fantasy without losing out on some form of skill expression. This does leave a few sticking points moving forward:

  1. Is the skill cap for tyrant “ramping” still an intended part of the gameplay? Right now, tyrant ramping regardless of haste puts us at 9 imps per tyrant ramp + at least a single cast of dreadstalkers to give us a “max” tyrant. There is the posibility of scaling higher if you are able to fit in a ruination cast in that duration which would bump it up to 12 (free hog + 3 imps). In my opinion, I don’t think this is asking too much from the player, but I would refer to my thoughts on tyrant ramps in general here:
Tyrant Changes

I’m happy that the tyrant skill cap is returning. HOWEVER, this design lives and dies on the frustration factor.

First off, from a theory crafting perspective, The player is always able to fit at least 11 imps into a tyrant cycle (without locked hand of gul’dan at 3 shards) and at 0% haste. There will always be a “goal” of how many imps a player will want to have in their tyrant windows if you design tyrant the way it is now, and how it was in the past. If you were to stand at a dummy, or stand still for 12s prior to casting tyrant, this is always the case, no exceptions. This will change with locked hand of gul’dan though, which might shift it to 12 (unlikely) but might be 9 (TBD).


If you want the player to focus on peaks and valleys once again, it must be always possible to reach that peak. To make an analogy out of this, it can be difficult to reach the top, but I should always get some sort of “payoff” of hitting that peak, and not be close to the top and slide all the way to the bottom of the valley. Previous feedback has pointed this out as “ramp cycles” or “ramping damage” but that skill cap should always persist; the real crux of the issue is whether I am able to empower my tyrant (as in cast it) after my ramping cycle. If I do my ramp, but then am unable to cast my tyrant because of a situation out of my control (poor fight timings, or ability timings in m+) then I should not be extremely punished. This has nothing to do with “planning” my movement, when abilities like this affect us in bleeding-edge content.

There is a pretty obvious way to solve this problem:

  1. Make tyrant instant cast in pve (or master summoner makes it instant cast and we can choose to alleviate this issue).

This would just allow us to focus the difficulty and skill cap on the “ramp” rather than whether I can hit my tyrant based on external factors.

TLDR: I’d rather have a terrible ramp cycle with some payoff (tyrant at the end), then a fantastic ramp cycle and getting walled from casting tyrant by an external factor that forces me to move (no tyrant cast).

  1. Our apex talent is clashing with our tyrant ramp, and it’s not exactly clear at this moment if the intended target for us to spawn is 1 or 2 demons. Currently, you’ll only really be able to summon a single greater demon, which imo feels a little underwhelming. I would rather tune the demon spawns to get us to at least two summons so that we get that payoff. Here is my feedback on that:
Apex talent

Kind of a weird talent. It’s contradictory with the rest of what the spec expects the player to do:

  1. We use all of our demonic core procs to do our tyrant ramp
  2. We have less resources and cooldowns to facilitate an “after/post” ramp once our tyrant is cast.
  3. It hyper focuses on us hitting at least 2 greater demon summons to feel good. That would mean with all apex talents talent, that at the bare minimum 1/4 of our globals are hand of gul’dan (6 hand of gul’dans) in 25 seconds. This seems completely unreasonable when accounting for haste values and having a 3 shard hard cap on hand of gul’dan

It doesn’t feel particularly cool to have an apex talent be such a high skill cap talent when our tyrant is already super high skill cap. It makes our rotation super stressful, for nearly 30s (our pre ramp for tyrant, then our “post” ramp for dominion of argus, when the stress should be focused on us building our Tyrant solely.

Couples solutions

  1. Reduce the amount of hand of gul’dan’s needed to summon greater demons
  2. Make it summon 2 greater demons baseline passively as a huge payoff for summoning tyrant
  3. Try to make the apex talent more conducive to a huge payoff for tyrant and refocus the design elsewhere.
  1. Hero talent balance is particularly poor at the moment where diabolist is just far superior (once again) than soul harvester. There are a couple different main offenders: Tyrant ramping is back which incentivises any increases to tyrant or increasing tyrant’s ability to buff demons (which are a large portion of damage now, specifically dreadstalkers), imp damage coming down with having less imps in tyrant just making the imp bonuses in the soul harvester tree poor, implosion becoming a cd which also disproportionaly impacts soul harvester with implosion-based nodes.
  2. Finally, soul harvester just feels thematically weak, and honestly really dissapointing for a demonology warlock at the moment. It doesn’t do anything differently than diabolist (same damage profile) and doesn’t really bring a visual flare that is cooler than diabolist – Why would I want to pick this hero talent if it’s nearly worse in every regard? There needs to be some thought put-in to how you can make this differentiate from diabolist, particularly in the damage breakdown department.
20 Likes

Very quick first impressions for affliction, may definitely be different later. Perspective of a M+ player.

Class tree:

Since the curses had changes today I’d just like to say honestly just combine them into one curse, it’ll make things so much easier and shouldn’t be a balancing issue. Most casters don’t melee much in PvE. Howl of terror seems unlikely to ever be used in PvE with how it is currently. I suggest “Oppressive Darkness” removes the target cap on the talent and makes it so effected enemies stand still, rather than run around and likely pull mobs. Similar issue with mortal coil is it makes mobs run around which in M+ feels detrimental. Abyss walker feels like it could be more useful if the damage reduction offered was higher but that’s a future balancing issue. But the idea of using demonic circle for a very mini wall sounds good and shows potential for skill expression.

Affliction:

Affliction talents feels very weird. Some talents require too many points, primarily xavius’s gambit and seeds of destruction feel bad putting 4 points into. The beginning of the tree including two stat increase talents immediately feels unnecessary as well. Additionally, having about 5 talents all buffing haunt feels excessive and difficult to balance in the future, although I do personally enjoy the look of it. Grimoire of sacrifice is still just bad. If it were a flat damage or intellect buff it could be better but I don’t think it really has a place on the talent tree at this point.

The lack of points and pathing of the tree makes it seem likely that in M+ aff will have insane AoE that will be very fun and then when you get to a boss you do nothing. If slight adjustments were made I think you could absolutely have a middle ground where you are in a M+ build and still have single target impact.

9 Likes

Casual Player - I login, I cast spells at things, I have fun. I can’t tell you about much of what most other people are stating above but maybe a casual’s input can be worth something:

I swapped to Unholy DK several expacs ago due to not liking the changes Warlock was getting. I’m switching back to Affliction Lock if these new changes carry over to live.

1 - I like that Drain Life heals our pet now. This feels so much better than the old spell that we used to heal them and feels closer to the class fantasy that I expected. My only concern is that this requires spending a point to get and the old spell to heal our pets was removed. This means that spending a point to unlock this is mandatory.

2 - I hated. HATED! Malefic Rapture. I know what it was supposed to do and why it was introduced but I really like the feeling of the DoTs being the main focal point. Whither was a big improvement/excitement for me but didn’t draw me back to the class in retail because I loathed Malefic Rapture. THANK YOU for getting rid of it. It just didn’t feel rewarding. My character threw his hands in the air and waved them around like he just didn’t care… and that was about it. It just didn’t feel good.

3 - I like the changes to the class tree that lets me randomly instant cast Shadow Bolt and how hard it seems to hit now. It seems to happen frequently enough to be useful but rarely enough that it causes my monkey brain to get excited each time it happens.

4 - I’ll give a sloppy ** to the dev that gives us some of the new Void Walker/-esque skins for our pets. The new models look so good and cool. I know this is going to end up like Straight Forsaken Spines and Worgen Tails but PLEASE let us swap to those models.

Overall, Affliction feels far, far, far better to me than it does in Retail. I’m very excited.

4 Likes

This may not be feedback on gameplay features, but I personally would like to bring up that the Embers of Nihilam Apex Talent for Destruction was absolutely much better as the giant death beam from the sky animation than the new shadowflame rift. I hope Blizzard would consider reverting the animation, that crazy orbital cannon was half the reason I considered maining Destro this time. Might have been the coolest visual ever.

8 Likes

Will compile my feedback here based on following the Alpha, primarily playing Warlock in TWW, and first Beta impressions


-Demonology-centric-

Felguard as a talent:

The early Alpha notes state that the goal is to make it more apparent to newer players that Summon Felguard is a powerful upgrade for the Demonology spec. I believe that moving it to a talent located at the side of the spec tree contradicts the stated goal, as it makes it easy for newer players to inadvertently skip the ability.

What I would suggest is to make Felguard baseline again, and take the “Sample Abilities” from the spec window and rename those to “Core Abilities.” Demonology could display Felguard and Hand of Gul’dan. That way when someone is selecting any spec, they can zero in on spec-defining abilities, assuming that you want Felguard to continue to be a spec-defining feature.

Apex Talents:

The general design is great. One aspect I’m pondering is whether summoning every 3 HoG casts is often enough to make it feel impactful, even with the Soul Shard refund. I’d like to see the rate of demon summoning increased here even if they do less damage individually. I’m also a little concerned that we’d be concentrating too much power in the burst, and potentially doubling down on penalties for fights that involve significant movement.

Implosion:

Glad to see that it’s de-emphasized and no longer a required spell. It was always an awkward ability to use since there was this complex tradeoff between imp single target damage (and talents boosting imps), imp energy (+WeakAuras used to track it), GCD usage, and the usual calculations of whether to use single target vs. AoE in the first place. Demonology has so much cleave as part of its kit that Implosion wasn’t all that necessary. Lastly, the theme of destroying your demons for personal gain has typically been optional (e.g. Grimoire of Sacrifice) and in direct opposition to what I’d consider the primary Demonology fantasy of amassing and maintaining a large army of demons.


-Class-wide Feedback-

Ritual of Summoning/Summoning in general

I didn’t have a better place to put this, but it keeps coming to mind especially after playing Remix.

Speeding up group travel via summoning is a big class perk for Warlocks, with alternatives available in the form of summoning stones and scrolls in Remix for other players. However, it’s a tedious, no-fun minigame that hasn’t changed much in the past 20 years, requiring multiple players waiting ~5 seconds per summon (sometimes multiplied by 28+ to gather everyone) attempting to coordinate and not overlap with the same target.

There’s quite a bit of friction in the community in the form of resenting players for not summoning/assisting with summoning, criticizing others for being “too lazy to fly,” and players hating the minigame itself.

Two competing options would be 1) make summoning substantially easier so that it’s less annoying for anyone participating (or avoiding participation), or 2) remove it from the game so there’s nothing left to complain about. I’m in favor of option 1 because I think we should maintain the utility.

To that end, I’d like to see summoning, especially for Warlocks, change to: A) require only one player (the Warlock by themselves, or a single player for Summoning Stones) to initiate and summon, and/or B) target the party/raid instead of an individual character. The original justifications for limiting this spell (e.g. world PvP) don’t really hold true today, and if there are still major concerns, other limitations could be considered in place of what we have now.

Drain Life:

Even with taking all of the relevant talents, it doesn’t feel great to push, judging by what I’ve tested in the Beta with Demonology. Given that we have to stand still, stop our DPS rotation, open ourselves up to interrupts, and burn through our mana, I think it should feel like a powerful self-heal, and not a last ditch attempt to get some HP back.

Based on my own experience and talking to some others during TWW, this spell has had problems with scaling consistently in various forms of content, as well as being under tuned to the extent that some people took it off their action bars altogether. It’s been through multiple huge %-based buffs which seem not to have much effect in the long run. It might warrant rethinking how the spell works, since the usefulness of Drain Life has been a perennial issue.

As an iconic, historically class-defining spell for Warlocks, my personal take is that it should somehow recapture the original feeling of “if the Warlock is allowed to channel this, they’re going to be hard to kill.” How Drain Life feels to use is subjective so I’d just ask to keep an eye on the tuning and think about the costs vs. benefit of pushing this button.

Health Funnel’s removal and its replacement with Drain Life:

Similar to the feedback concerning Felguard, we should have access to the ability to heal our pets at baseline, especially for the sake of newer players.

The shift from Health Funnel to Drain Life does make the healing process easier in that players won’t have to gamble with their life to keep their pet alive. I think the rapid healing on the Beta is appropriately in line with a Soulburn+Health Funnel combo, since we have to stop our DPS and stand still to channel this ability.

Two things I’d consider here: I find myself wishing I could top off my demon outside of combat with this change. Maybe we could have better passive out-of-combat regen for the demon in particular. I also think it would be nice to have some visual feedback of our pet getting healed after years of seeing the red Health Funnel beam channeling into the pet.

Soulburn:

The Health Funnel effect either needs to be reworded or changed since we don’t have access to that spell anymore.

Burning Rush:

The ability to gain upwards of 70% movement speed whenever it is needed is powerful and fairly unique among class mobility options. I just think the health drain is borderline too punishing.


-Last comments-

  • Curses being reverted back to one button = one curse is a good change that keeps the spells feeling intuitive. Foul Mouth for AoE curses is a very welcome upgrade that will make using curses in M+ more attractive.
  • Folding Vilefiend into Call Dreadstalkers, and creating a talent to make them instant and cost no shards is a major QoL upgrade that I appreciate, and helps with the Demo ramp time not feeling as protracted.
  • Gaining utility in the form of the new Grimoires is great, as well, especially if we get a second interrupt or Singe Magic in addition to our primary pet abilities.
  • The overall visual theme and class design for Demonology is fantastic with all of the summons, including the new Eye of Gul’dan lasers. Very excited to play this spec going into Midnight.

Thank you for all of your hard work!

13 Likes

Demo needs a dedicated on demand AoE attack and Implosion on a 30 sec cd is not it, especially when its competing with Siphon.

5 Likes

Affliction Warlock Feedback – Midnight Changes
1. Shared Agony & Seed of Corruption
• The idea of Shared Agony is solid, but the implementation feels restrictive.
• Suggestion: Seed of Corruption now also applies Agony to all mobs within 10 yards.
• This would eliminate the need to manually apply Agony 3–4 times per pack and remove the frustrating 4‑mob limit.
• Every other spec has proper cleave mechanics; Affliction should not lag behind in 2026.
• Works fine for council/2‑target fights, but for Mythic+ this change is essential.

2. Shard Economy & Unstable Affliction (UA)
• Shard spending feels awkward and starved, even with Soul Harvester.
• UA duration is too short (5–6s). Increasing it by 3–5 seconds would allow Drain Soul casts and Nightfall procs to matter.
• Stacking UA doesn’t feel impactful—early stacks fall off too quickly.
• Without Rapture, Affliction relies entirely on DoTs for priority damage. UA needs to “stick” longer.
Possible solutions:
• Expiring UA could generate shards.
• Increase shard generation from Agony ticks.
• Allow UA maintenance on priority targets while casting Seeds.

3. DoT Refresh Hell
• Current gameplay feels like constant DoT refreshing with little payoff.
• Durations should be extended:
• Agony: ~30s (with Pandemic up to ~35s).
• UA: 15–20s as a spender.
• Short windows prevent meaningful Drain Soul usage, Nightfall procs, or Malefic Grasp synergy.
• Right now Affliction feels like a “sadistic DoT refresher machine” rather than a fun spec.

4. Seed of Corruption Cast Time
• Remove the cast time entirely.
• Nearly every spec has instant AoE; Affliction shouldn’t be stuck with clunky 2‑second casts.
• Current rotation: UA → GCD → Seed → GCD → UA already falling off. This is not fun or efficient.

5. Talent Tree Concerns
• Talent bloat is a major issue:
• Too many 2‑point nodes (should be condensed into 1).
• Mastery/Haste nodes could be folded into Potent Afflictions.
• Apex talents feel wasted if the tree can’t be maximized.
• The result: players are forced into either ST or AoE builds, with little flexibility for mixed content (world quests, delves, etc.).
• Past trees (TBC, Cata) were more streamlined and impactful—current design feels bloated without payoff.

6. Grimoire of Sacrifice
• This talent deserves a comeback.
Suggestions:
• Buff modifier for ST fights (e.g., +6% shadow/fire damage with Haunt or UA active).
• Persist through death for 60 minutes.
• Make viable in PvP.
• Allow pet auto‑cleave for M+ scenarios.
Many players enjoyed the option to ditch pets as Affliction; this should be a competitive choice again.

7. UI & Nameplates
• Current CD Manager and nameplates are hard to read and lack clarity.
• NeatPlates (used for ~20 years) offered:
• Proper DoT stacking.
• Pandemic window indicators.
• Logical refresh order.
• Current UI feels clunky, especially with tight DoT windows.
Suggestions:
• Add import/export functionality for layouts (like WeakAuras).
• Improve baseline aesthetics and readability.
Without addon‑level clarity, Affliction’s already demanding rotation becomes frustrating.

Closing Thoughts
Overall, the direction of changes is promising, but Affliction still feels clunky, shard‑starved, and overly focused on constant DoT refreshing.
Key improvements needed:
• Easier DoT cleave (Agony spread to up to 4 targets should be baseline…with Sow providing agony spread up to 10 targets).
• Longer DoT durations.
• More shard generation.
• Streamlined talent tree.
• Better UI support.
Affliction should feel powerful and fluid, not like a constant uphill battle against timers and GCDs.

3 Likes

I have no complaints or suggestions about the Warlock’s specs; however, their IdleReadyCast animation REALLY needs to be addressed. Devs, please refer to this thread:
Warlock Idle Casting Stance - Still waiting on it

6 Likes

Curious when the last time you played affliction was if one of your main points of feedback is the shard economy? (genuine question).

Aff has had the same shard economy since Legion. The agony shard bit formula is actually the same as when they switched to aff having backend shard bits since 7.1.5 (or there abouts). Other than that, it has only really gone up or down +/- 1 or 2 shards per minute for almost a decade (with no developer note on whether they want to change our priority pattern). On a somewhat related note, the tooltip for agony shard generation is actually a bit misleading in the way that it generates shards, since it’s actually fairly determinative (on average) through an accumulative formula rather than flat chance, or flat bad luck protection.

Coming from the war within, we actually seem insanely flooded on shards, especially with how dominant relinquished will be in the spot it’s in – funnily enough, I wouldn’t be surprised when we implement APL’s for sims that we have too many shards to spend based on better globals that take into consideration afflictions pooling rate (since the play style is on average the same, but you pool shard instability procs in order to spend malefic grasp atm)

4 Likes

Oh my goodness yes. Look. Guys seriously. If someone internally is maining a Void/Blood/Night/Borne/Haranir (damn that’s a lot of Elves) Gnome / Vulpera Warlock, and doesn’t want their cute little Warlock to look ‘sinister’ or ‘evil’ then just give Warlocks a toggle already so they can choose which stance to use.

This is what new players are advertised when they roll a Warlock. As such it is core to Warlocks and it’s more than a little messed up this has been ignored for so long. Warlocks are not Mages. If we wanted to be Mages, we’d play that class.

What is this, the third Beta we’ve mentioned this now in Ignitheus? I’m losing count.


Edit:

Nope. It’s worse than that.

Character cast poses were revamped in World of Warcraft with patch 7.3, which was released on August 29, 2017. That means they were added during the Argus Campaign. So Beta wise we’ve actually mentioned this specific thing.. in the..

  • Battle for Azeroth Beta
  • Shadowlands Beta
  • Dragonflight Beta
  • War Within Beta
  • Midnight Beta

That’s five betas now Blizzard.
Can we like move this one along? Eight years for a simple thing changes it from a low priority to intentional omission.

3 Likes

Since I primarily play Demonology and Destruction, I will restrict my review to these two specs.

Demonology

My overall impression of the spec as it currently stands is positive, but there is some room for improvement:

1.) Summon Felguard: I am truly at a loss as to why this is a talent. Going into the alpha I felt convinced that it was merely a placeholder, but seeing as it is still in the tree, I must express my deep concern. The rationale for making this a talent does not make sense, because there are better ways to communicate to the new or returning player that Felguard is the spec’s demon of choice. This is a wasted talent that gets in the way of picking up more valuable ones like, in particular, “Aura of Contempt”, which I don’t think will see play except in delves (since it’s gated by Fel Armaments, one of whose effects provides the Felguard with reduced damage taken). The simplest and most practical solution is simply to remove the talent and replace it with Fel Armaments followed by Aura of Contempt - with, of course, the required pathing changes - so that the latter, which is a very good talent, can be more easily selected.

2.) Implosion: giving this ability a cooldown and restricting it to six Imps is a very bad, unnecessary decision that severely weakens our AoE potential. I would revert the ability’s functionality to what it is now on live.

3.) Stabilized Portals: this is an extremely weak talent unworthy of capstone position. I do not have any specific recommendations for how to improve it, but I think it should be replaced with something much more interesting and powerful.

4.) Dominion of Argus: I have not had the opportunity yet to test the Apex talents, so that I do not know for certain what type of demons emerge from the portal; however, if Prince Malchezaar is not one of them (there was a chance to summon him with the old iteration of Nether Portal), please, PLEASE bring him back, as the opportunity to summon him was one of the most exciting aspects of the previous version of Nether Portal. It would be very cool to be able to bring forth Lord Jaraxxus or Doom Lord Kazzak as well.

In general, the second half of the tree is too restrictive in terms of available points. I would suggest making either Demonic Knowledge or Demonic Calling one point, because at the moment I feel locked in pointwise.

Destruction

Overall, I am quite pleased with the first half of the Destruction tree and the spec’s design. Some of the second half needs to be re-evaluated, however:

1.) Channel Demonfire: this talent is too weak to be worth considering, especially as a capstone. Its previous niche, namely, extension of Immolate that’s particularly helpful for Hellcaller, has now been taken over by the new version of Roaring Blaze. I do not think a simple damage buff will remedy the situation; as enjoyable as this talent was in the past, I think the time has come for it to be retired and replaced with a new, exciting active ability (Destruction could definitely use an extra button to spice up the rotation, as it were).

2.) Mark of Ruvaraad: this, too, is a rather weak talent that’s unbecoming of a capstone ability. For the last few expansions Destruction pets (primarily Imp for damage/occasional utility with Singe and Felhunter for interrupt) have done relatively little throughput, and this talent does not adequately address that deficit - nor should it, since the focus should be on enhancing the warlock’s power. There is no need for a talent: a simple buff to pet damage will suffice.

3.) Dimensional Rift/Soulfire: some will surely disagree with me in my approval of the Soulfire change, which I happen to like. In my view, having an extra, powerful button to press that’s not inherently clunky can only be a good thing. That said, when Soulfire was greatly buffed, Dimensional Rift was not appropriately compensated (indeed, not at all; consider, too, that Soulfire interacts with Havoc, but Dimensional Rift does not). This is a serious mistake. Dimensional Rift is one of my favorite abilities and I most definitely want it to stay, so please do NOT remove it; instead, buff it considerably to put it on equal footing with Soulfire. As it stands, I doubt Dimensional Rift will ever be picked, both because of its low damage and because it has only a chance (yes, depending on what rift you get, there is a possibility to summon more than one, but this happens too rarely) to summon an Overfiend. Three simple fixes will achieve this goal, which I and many others have been calling for since Dimensional Rift was reintroduced in DF: first, bring back Flame Rift; second, give Incinerate, which we cast more often now, a percent chance to refund a charge of Dimensional Rift; and third, in addition to a flat DPS buff to Dimensional Rift itself, make Flame Rift the condition to summon an Overfiend (alternatively, and even better, disentangle Dimensional Rift from Soulfire and put it in Mark of Ruvaraad’s or Channel Demonfire’s place - if the latter, then maybe the old Dimensional Rift AoE talent can be brought back). Frankly, there is no justification for leaving Dimensional Rift in its current state: it has so much unused potential.

4.) Embers of Nihilam: I have seen others draw attention, on a lore point, to the fact that Sargeras destroyed the Titans on Nihilam through a felstorm, not Shadowflame magic. I do not deem this an issue (Kil’Jaeden uses Shadowflame magic in Tomb of Sargeras), as I personally love the Apex talents as they stand; however, I think the final node could be made even more interesting by giving each Echo a low chance to summon a Felstorm, dealing X damage, or something to this effect.

On a side note, can we also get an animation change to Conflagrate, Immolate, and Shadow Bolt? All three are woefully underwhelming to me.

5 Likes

I primarily play Demonology so I’ll only speak on that.

While initially I was against the 9 imp limit from the alpha build, I would prefer that over what we have now. Imps seem to expire far too quickly and are a pain to manage.

Power Siphon and Implosion are a strange choice for a choice node especially with the 6 imp limit and 30 second CD on implosion, that completely neuters implosion and removes a lot of the fun of the ability. I understand that demolocks are difficult to balance due to unpredictable imp counts on live, but the current solution to that in beta feels bad to play.

As it stands now, I prefer how demonology was in the alpha rather than how it is now. With the exception of getting an interrupt as part of our kit rather than relying on our primary pet to give us it.

From the alpha I thought the concept of Hand of Gul’dan turning into Eye of Gul’dan when at 6+ imps to be quite compelling if it were balanced to feel good to hit.

1 Like

Finally got a chance to play some warlock on the Beta and here is my feedback.

Class:

Utility Curses/Pacts: Big fan of the most recent changes to Curses and Pacts to bring back those distinct buttons. I think its well understood that those weren’t proper button or complexity reductions. However, choosing out of combat between Pact of Weakness and Pact of Tongues feels a bit sad. In addition, we lost the ability to use a Pact of Exhaustion.

Suggestion: make the Pact capstone work like Amplify Curse in that it buffs your next cast of a Curse to a higher percentage modifier, but with a shorter duration. Essentially a single Amp button that turns your next Curse into a Pact.

Abyss Walker: This talent has felt like a trap for so long. It provides little to no benefit in any content. Little in PVP since you are likely leaving an enemy with Teleport, in Dungeons you hardly teleport and in Raids when you do teleport, the DR is not nothing, but its so small it hardly matters.

Request: Rework this talent. “Abyss Walker” to me sounds like something that should involve greater mobility not damage reduction. Allow for us to place our Circle anywhere within 30 yards after teleporting could be cool, or allowing us to cast the next spell while moving after using teleport. Both would also make Demonic Circle more interesting in M+ where you are frequently using it to move away, and then having to continue running to drop a puddle or get back to the group.

Drain Life/Health Funnel: I can understand the desire to remove an ability here, but a simple fix could make the usability of this outstanding.

Suggestion: When Drain Life is cast with no target, it damages you and heals your pet for the same (like old Health Funnel).

Affliction:

Pooling and Shard Spending: The stated goal of the Affliction changes has been to remove pooling and remove the question of when to pool. I love that goal and support the changes that have gone alongside it with UA. However, the new talent Cull the Weak, and the current state of Malevolence, alongside Darkglare are increases to the amount of pooling needed. Right now, you want to save shards to spend during Malevolence, and spam a lot of UAs before Cull the Weak or Darkglare. With Darkglare on a 2 min cd, this may be fine there, but on a 1 minute window for Dark Harvest and Malevolence, the spec plays the same as retail.

Request: Make changes to Cull the Weak, Malevolence and maybe Darkglare so that pooling doesn’t provide a benefit.

Shared Agony: I may be in the minority, but I am a huge fan of removing Vile Taint and instead having us multi dot properly in AOE. However, the flow of this talent is a bit of a hassle due to it being locked behind Seed of Corruption. When questing, pvp, and many raid bosses you would prefer to take Shared Agony and not Seed of Corruption, essentially causing you to lose a point.

Suggestion: Switch Seed of Corruption and Shared Agony in the talent trees.

Haunt: This is the activator of our apex talent and for a single talent point, may provide more than 12% dps on single target. This talent is too impactful to be sitting on the side of the tree as something you can skip.

Suggestion: Move Haunt into a more central location that is tough to avoid. Hot take: I might even suggest switching it with Darkglare. It seems realistic to me that Affliction without a major CD would be thematic for a rot spec.

Demonology:

Demonic Tyrant: Big fan of the changes back to this and the removal of the extension. However, due to the Imp limit being removed, this once again brings some difficult to manage issues with when to summon Tyrant.

Suggestion: Remove all interactions with Imps from Tyrant. Doomguard, Dreastalkers (and Vilefiend) is enough of a combo to make the setup something manageable in a world without addons while still having some interesting mechanics.

Grimoire Imp Lord/Fel Ravager & Summon Felguard: one of the goals for Demonology was to highlight the importance of Felguard to the player. In its current position, its still relatively easy to avoid taking. In addition, Imp Lord and Fel Ravager provide amazing utility that is placed so deep in the tree. Realistically, you’ll never avoid any of those if you’re looking for an optimal build, but that just makes being forced to spend those points that much less enjoyable.

Suggestion: Move Felguard higher in the tree, possibly replacing Hand of Guldan? Also move the Grimoire Imp Lord/Fel Ravager choice node higher in the tree so that its easier to take.

Implosion: I actually love this being a choice with Power Siphon. Power Siphon has never felt like a huge damage button since you’re trading Imps for a proc that at the end of the day just gives…more imps? However, a 30 second cooldown feels too long for what feels like our primary AOE.

Suggestion: Allow for more uses of this ability even if the overall power remains the same. If this was reduced to 3 imps and 15 second cooldown, it would more reliably give us multiple casts of this on an AOE pull in M+ and allow for it to feel less bad to “waste” it right before a big pack of adds comes out. Another suggestion, add a second charge to it, even if the CD isn’t changed to help alleviate that kind of situation.

Destruction:

I can’t help but notice that the original post was happy with how Destruction plays in TWW, and yet many of the enjoyable aspects were removed. Instead of overall flow, Midnight looks to ruin 3 abilities that have finally felt good to press after years of feeling bad.

Suggestion: Revert all 3 of these abilities (or their associated talents) back to the TWW versions

Channel Demonfire/Hellcaller: This combination was exceptionally powerful in TWW while also being enjoyable. Without Channel Demonfire extending Wither, the ability for this spec to play in M+ is significantly changed and the ability itself feels exceptionally bad to use in all scenarios. Maybe this is intentional, but this extension gave Destro a really enjoyable M+ playstyle and it is sad to see it removed.

Shadowburn: This ability has always been at the mercy of tuning when compared to Chaos Bolt, but in recent times, the tuning has been good to the point where it can be worth casting as a movement tool. It also had a CDR talent when it failed to kill the target and that lead to some mobile and fun gameplay when you hit execute phase. Its honestly the most enjoyable execute phase we’ve had in a long time. All that good has been removed and replaced by making it a generic “can’t use until 20%” execute and giving it a “Sudden Death” proc.

Soul Fire/Decimation: One of Destro’s OG abilities finally felt good to press after something like a decade! It dealt great damage, saved you a dot cast, and gave a shard! None of that changed so it should be good? Well, unfortunately, the caveat there is that all of those things were only true when you had Decimation. Otherwise, it was an ability you only ever pre-casted. In theory, making the ability’s damage super high would be a way of making it usable, but the loss of Decimation is felt regardless if this is designed to be the “plant and cast” choice node with Dimensional Rift. I would gladly give up Overfiend to have Decimation back in its place. Allow Overfiend to continue to proc from Rift?

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Wanted to piggyback off this post because it captures how I feel about Affliction.

Part of the community considers debuff management via nameplates the entire identity of the spec, and they wouldn’t necessarily be wrong when considering the history of how it plays.

However, I don’t think this is necessarily fun design. And, while it might have made more sense when the gameplay was slower, less AoE-based, the frenetic pace of the modern game makes refreshing DoTs with the UI tools cumbersome.

Shared Agony Feedback:

The initial Alpha dev notes state:

While many specializations have tools to solve DoT application, DoTs do not define their moment-to-moment gameplay and shouldn’t as that is the realm of Affliction. Agony would lose a lot of texture, and throughput, if its application played out in a similar way to Corruption.

I simply do not agree that Affliction should be restricted to manual DoT refreshes because DoTs are the theme of the spec. If anything, I would argue that Affliction, as the DoT spec, should have powerful, unique ways of managing DoT spells.

Shared Agony is not that. It:

  • is a recycled Druid talent, so it lacks novelty
  • requires focusing on nameplates which personally I think is an outdated and tedious way of playing the game, especially in fast-paced AoE content. This is heavily dependent on UI implementation which is in flux given the UI/addon work in parallel with the class redesigns
  • optimally requires reacting within 1 GCD to whichever targets do not get the secondary debuff application, which I suspect will be unrealistic for many players in many fights
  • burns 3-4 GCDs every application and refresh for medium-large AoE packs, which at times is a downgrade from the Vile Taint spell it replaced
  • is the way Affliction generates Soul Shards, and since it gatekeeps the spec’s spenders (SoC/UA) it should, in my opinion, be relatively easy to manage

I’d prefer an alternative way of maintaining Agony. I’m not sure that baking it into SoC is the way (although I’d rather have, as an example, “Seed of Agony” and have Corruption be the manual/Shared X refresh).

The main aspect I’d like to avoid is having to snipe nameplates in AoE. One idea would be to have a spell cause Agony to jump and refresh from the primary target. Players would still need to monitor secondary targets to know that enough Agony was applied/what the remaining duration was, though the latter might be inferred from the primary target’s debuff duration.

The devs already did something similar with Crimson Tempest and Assassination Rogues, although for Affliction, I think Agony should refresh and could be a gradual application rather than contain it to one GCD. If the goal of the redesigns didn’t include simplifying rotations, I’d suggest that this ability get its own spell. Perhaps bake it into Drain Soul/Shadow Bolt?

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